Should I change my embouchure?

[kvothe]

Hey guys. I've posted here before about having issues and you guys have been helpful. Hopefully you can give me some insight here as well.

I'm going to be a junior at a fairly good college with a great teacher who I trust a lot. But my biggest problem has been range, and it's something I that's been incredibly frustrating for my whole life.

I know you have to take things with a grain of salt on this website but I'll try to describe my situation as accurately as I can.

I want to be an orchestra musician really badly and I've been working towards that since my junior year of high school. I've been told many times by professionals that I have a really beautiful sound. I can do anything, loud, soft, fast, whatever, but most of that goes away higher up.

Above a concert F on the staff, my sound starts to get a LOT thinner. I can play softly with very minimal pressure up to a high E flat, and loudly up to a high B and sort of C, but I need a LOT more pressure to play loudly concert A and up. Unfortunately, the I have to do a lot of that, and so I have to be really careful with highs because they bruise me up a ton if I'm not.

I've been working endlessly on being able to do things easily and softly in the upper register and I've made huge progress on making it easier, but the sound is just still incredibly thin and prone to fuzzing out and just worse in general. I meet pros and so many of them talk about building everything out of great softs and that's where they get their control. And I'm sitting here like... struggling so hard to do the same thing when that's where they start.

It makes me feel like I'm really doing something fundamentally wrong... but at the same time the rest of what I'm doing sounds fine so I don't know what to do. I shift a fair amount when I play and I try to minimize it but that's how I developed any sort of a high range at all. I honestly don't even know how I would switch embouchures (like where to even start??), but despite the improvement I've been making I don't know if I'll ever be able to play like the people I look up to if something doesn't drastically change.

Am I just wildly over-reacting? My teacher won't touch embouchure so I just don't know. I guess it bears mentioning that I only just overcame the high C barrier this past year after never even being able to touch it before.

I'm at a point when I can play what I'm given and sound appropriate for the most part, but the highs are just inconsistent and fuzzy unless they're like really loud (and then they sound exactly right, or so I'm told). I just feel like two separate players between my registers.

But yeah. I don't have a flipping clue what to do. Sorry if this is overly specific but I just wanted to know if anybody has had similar experience and has any idea how I should proceed

Thanks so much for everything guys,

K

[B_Starry]

In a word: yes.
That said, trust your teacher, and pray that they know what they are doing.
I have known many PhD/DMA who were good players but poor teachers (different skill sets.)
.
If you range sucks at and above high C, you will be limited in terms of what you can do at the professional level.
If you are an Amateur or hobbyist, do not worry about it.
But, if you aspire to a performance profession, then it might be time to suck it up and make the difficult change in embouchure required to succeed at that level.

Just a guess on my part, but maybe you play with a receded jaw?
Level (aligned) teeth help with range, IMO.

Just my opinion. Hope it helps ... (It might seem hurtful,which is certainly not my intention, but you did ask for inputs and I am just being honest based on 50+ years of experience.)

Obviously, we cannot be precise in our diagnosis, without first-hand observation, but you have posted a long plea and seem to genuinely want inputs, hence my reply ...

Brian
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[HERMOKIWI]

You clearly have a fundamental issue with the mechanics necessary to produce notes in the higher register. You need an expert "chop doctor" to look at your situation first hand. Contact Clint "Pops" McLaughlin and arrange a skype lesson focusing on your range issue. He has the experience to diagnose the problem(s) promptly and get you going in the right direction.

Here's his website: http://www.bbtrumpet.com
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HERMOKIWI

[dstdenis]

I wouldn't change an embouchure if I wasn't sure about what I would change it to, and why.

I noticed you mentioned you play softly in the upper register a lot. That's okay, but I wonder if you need to vary that a bit? I'm a big fan of practicing softly to improve response and efficiency, but I think you also need to play with power at times to develop that capability.

I wouldn't advise you to go crazy with it, but practicing things like Vassily Brandt's Etudes for Trumpet, for example, with a strong, powerful sound might be just what you need. There are lots of books like that, and some of them have exercises that have you play a mix of loud and soft phrases. There are lots of good exercises in the Arban book for this, and Franquin's arpeggio drills are great for building power, agility and range too.

I'd suggest you work on things like that, keep practicing some material softly too so you don't lose embouchure responsiveness, and don't do an embouchure change unless you're really sure you need it.
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[snichols]

I'll put this here. While it may not answer all of your questions, Tom talks about his struggle with embouchure, range, etc. I guess when he won the Marine Band job he could only play up to high C or something...

https://youtu.be/aTru2lBKi_o

[Bflatman]

The biggest disservice you could do to a teacher is to make a fundamental change before you see them.

If you trust him them trust him fully.

Do not make some half assed change before he has a chance to see the problem and fix it.

[scottfsmith]

I am in a somewhat similar situation, my highs and endurance plateaued and I recently decided to explicitly work on my embouchure. First I watched some videos and I am now taking private Skype lessons with an expert. Ask me in a month or two how it works out, but so far it feels like the wool over my eyes is lifting, I am understanding things about how the embouchure works and how to tune it that I was clueless on before. The video of Tom Hooten above provides more supporting evidence, it is a good watch.

No guarantees of course. And don't overdo it, I am finding I am using some facial muscles more and I need to go slowly so as not to overuse these muscles as they are building strength. So I practice several times a day but 15 minutes max.
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[John Mohan]

No, you should not change your embouchure. If you have the good sound you describe, your embouchure is fine. Your problems have to do with developing a good upper register. This requires air power development and control of the air power with the arching tongue. It has little to do with the embouchure (it's not just the lips, it's what makes the lips vibrate - the AIR STREAM) that needs to be worked on and developed. Like most other players, you are overly lip conscious and this is hindering your progress. I was the same when I was young. Fortunately I found and studied with Claude Gordon and his teaching gave me a career as a player.

I've helped others with bigger problems than yours and I could most certainly help you.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[kvothe]

[Bach37]

Had some of the same problems in college. I found a teacher in Denver who was a Claude Gordon student. Did his routine religiously four hours a day. A year later I had a gig with a premier military band.

[Billy B]

What do you practice on a daily routine basis?

How long do you practice each day?
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Bill Bergren

[solo soprano]

If all else fails try this:

"More than 50 years ago a man by the name of Jaroslav Cimera, who was at the time considered to be " The Dean of All Brass Teachers " in the Chicago area, was teaching a method for upper register development that produced great results. It is a remedial method that will overcome the biggest obstacle trumpeters face in developing the upper register. What obstacle ? Using too large an aperture for playing in the upper register. This method is designed to develop the smaller aperture needed for upper register playing, while at the same time giving you " aperture control " that will allow you to play any note on the horn at will. The method uses very soft playing and decrescendo as you ascend, until the top note is played in just a " whisper ".

Remember : This is a remedial routine. It does not replace your normal manner of practicing the upper register.

If practiced properly, here is what the method can do for you:

1. Increase your range dramatically and immediately.
2. Build the strongest embouchure you can imagine, thus increasing endurance.
3. Reduce the amount of " pressure " you are now using, which will save the lip.
4. Give you the " feel " for any note on the horn...you will be able to " pick off " any note at even the softest dynamic level.
5. Develop the proper size " aperture " for high note playing, while allowing you to move throughout the entire range of the instrument without using an " embouchure shift ".

William B. Knevitt

https://qpress.ca/product/knevitt-cimera-method-developing-upper-register-trumpet/
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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
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[Bach37]

Bill,

The whole routine was four hours. Gordon, Irons, Clarke, Schlossberg. Lots of rest. I'm a classical player. Used Bb, C, Eb, and after a while, Picc.

[deanoaks]

To the OP: I know EXACTLY the frustrations you are going through because I struggled with the exact same thing. Good and full sound until F, then a color change more dramatically at the high A/G# while still having the ability to get up above high C softly.

I am a former student of James Thompson and everything that I am saying can be found in the foreword of his book "Buzzing Basics." You should not be worrying about making an embouchure change.
What I believe is happening based off of your description is that you are leading with the lip as you ascend into the upper register rather than leading with your air. This habit is common in many younger trumpet players especially at the high school and college level because we are all young and full of youthful energy. Thompson believes there are FIVE (5) registers on the trumpet that are separated by "breaks." These breaks occur between bottom line D/E. Top line E/F. Between G/A above the staff and lastly between F# and G above high C. When you are going from one register to another, for the sake of argument let's say we are going from the middle register to the upper register, you need to give MORE air to produce the same number of decibels and maintain a similar tone quality. Same goes from upper register to the A break as well as from the middle register going down to the lower register, although instead of adding air velocity, you would be adding air volume instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tJlcALxXyw

He mentions that briefly here.
What I believe you should try (take it or leave it obviously) is try to do some flow studies or long-tone studies of your choice slowly and pay attention to the ring in your sound as you go from middle register to the high register and paying attention again to the tone quality from the upper register to the A break, or from the middle register to the A break in which the change in air needs to be rapid, smooth, and more dramatic. Playing with a tuner might not be the most effective method here but you may want to consider using a drone to see if you are not only in tune but also playing in the resonate center of each note. I prefer to use dronetonetool.com, but any drone will work.
Leave the tongue out of the equation for the time being so you can a sense of the flow. If you find yourself losing the ring in your sound, reset and try again. If you find yourself mentally tired and making dumb mistakes you don't usually, take a rest for 15-20 and come back to it.

Hope any of this helped! Please let me know if there is anything you want me to clarify or elaborate. I am aware I lack efficiency in my explanations.

[dstdenis]

[hpoles]

I say as long as the sound is quality, the setup wont specifically matter visually..

[oj]

Composer and trumpeter Stanley Friedman says something very interesting in this video, ca 5 min into it (Note: To see this, you'll have to buy it).

https://www.trumpetland.com/lesson/135-the-correct-way-to-practice-stamps-exercises-23-basic-warm-up

Friedman who took over many of Jimmy Stamps students, asked Stamp one time: "Do you change embouchure?" Stamp said "No".

Surprisning?
After all, this answer came from the great embouchure guru - James Stamp!

Stamp said to Friedman:"If I can get the student centering the pitch consistently, playing beautiful rhytm and breathing in tempo, the chops problems usually dissappear".

Ole

[BGinNJ]

There's some great strategies and methods in the replies here, but we can only guess by your description. The thing that leapt out at me was that you "shift a lot". I have to wonder if the way you're shifting to get the upper register is causing your problem. I'm no chop doctor, but I've been working with one, and your setup shouldn't really change much.

[JaredMoore]

If your teacher says that he doesn't want to change your embouchure i would trust that he knows what he is talking about and that you don't need an embouchure change. just do whatever he says and if what h is teaching isn't making you a better player then time for a new teacher.

[Richard III]