Mouthpiece Gap

WillyCook · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Mouthpiece Gap

Can some of you experts either explain this whole mouthpiece "gap" thing to me? Or maybe point me to a good source that will explain it? Thank you all.
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Bach Stradivarius 37, Bach Stradivarius 43, Bach Stradivarius NY7, Bach Stradivarius 239, Bach Stradivarius Long Model Cornet 37, Bach 5C, Bach 3C Megatone

snichols · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:21 am Post subject:

http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm

http://www.bobreeves.com/blog/12-trumpet-gap-myths/

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html

Also, a bunch of threads on this site.

oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

http://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

You can also do a Google search for more discussion. Enter this in Google, site:trumpetherald.com ~mouthpiece gap

Kent

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Mouthpiece gap

Hello all,
Those are great articles to get started with. Serious folks go with the Reeves system to dial in their equipment. For me with older horns, I have the receiver moved to get the gap of 1/8th inch. That is my preference. I use Warburtons on my newer horns, so I have been known to get shanks a little skinnier to get what I want. I have found I have to over compensate and get the E shank if I remember right. Slotting above the staff needs a smaller gap to work right for me. Though I don't consider myself a high note player. Gap matters. Some people think it is a gimmick.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

Richard III · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:45 am Post subject:

I have no dog in this hunt, but here's an idea. Set up a system in a music store where people can walk in with their horns and try a system of gap adjustments and mouthpieces. They could see for themselves if it makes a difference. Why not? Beats talking about it and sending off for stuff that costs you money before you know.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:00 am Post subject: Mouthpiece gap

Hello Richard,
The logistics of what you mentioned would be great if you live around Reeves or Warburton. Cost effective solution would be brass inserts of varying thicknesses placed in a receiver that has too much gap already. I have done that. I have also cut up pop cans to create a sleeve on receivers which had spread over years of use, which had made the MP's bottom out on the venturi. I think few shops, unless they were brass specific, would offer such a service.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

TKSop · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece gap

JetJaguar · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:18 am Post subject:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Leader%20Pipe.html
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
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Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

If the gap measures too large on a Bb, a quick "adjustment" is one wrap of Scotch Magic tape which is equal to 1/8th less gap. It's a quick way to see how much gap matters and who doesn't have Magic Tape around?

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

snichols · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:27 am Post subject: Re: M/P gap

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: Mouthpiece gap

Hello Jet,
I have read that piece from the Schilke loyalist before. The interesting thing is that none of the Schilke Bb's i have owned has had zero gap. Realizing that article was written in the 50's, it theoretically makes sense, but in actual practice, a small gap helps slot some notes better. My opinion. I think we have to see what he originally did with the design of his trumpets. First, he used a reverse lead pipe. That moved the tuning gap down further and lengthened the pipe itself, losing and loosening the slots over a regular lead pipe design. Then secondly, according to his theories, lost the gap at the receiver. creating a looser feel than what he wanted to begin with. Overall, i think that gave him a trumpet that was extremely even through the registers, more so than the other pro brands. So, over the next many years, I felt that he had to shy away from his no-gap receiver to just help the horn slot a little tighter.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

JetJaguar · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject:

Hello Christian

Is his shying away conjecture on your part, based on your observations of Schilke trumpets, or did he actually recant?

Thanks

Peter
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: Mouthpiece gap

Hello jet,
Just my observations on the the Schilke horns. I guess one would have to make contact with Laskey or Pinc and ask that question, as they were working while Renold was actively running the company.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

TKSop · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:07 am Post subject:

If one reads this:
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html

... and has a little think, surely what the Schilke article linked above makes sense:
It's simply a different set of values that will achieve approximately the same thing - a setup with a balanced gap.

By which I mean... when you design the mouthpieces to have a small exit wall (ie: the metal is thinner at the end) and you design the leadpipe to have a thinner wall thickness (ie: receiver ID - venturi ID) then your "zero gap" will be much smaller in the first place (I don't like the term "zero gap", it almost implies that gap should be zero - it's really a target or the expected balancing point, the gap that's expected to play best based on the other factors involved).... and when you've designed it to want a smaller target gap, you're going to need the mouthpiece to go in further so (smaller OD at the end) that you achieve a smaller gap in practice - which is exactly what Schilke does.

(I'm sure Bri will chime in and chastise me if I've mis-interpreted the GR page, and I'm perfectly happy to accept it if that's the case).

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

Good catch on my Scotch Magic Tape "fix". Certainly I meant too little gap and a wrap on the M/P/ shank with Magic Tape gives you about an 1/8th more gap. Thanks for catching that.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

kmag · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:31 am Post subject:

This is something I have been wondering about for some time.

I have a 1925 Holton that has no gap because the way the receiver and the leadpipe are constructed. There is no seam past the end of the mouthpiece much like my 1940's Conn 80A cornet. I am assuming there can not be gap issues since there is no gap. If so, why are trumpets not made this way any more? It plays great by the way!
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Kurt Magnuson

1925 Holton trumpet
1946 Conn 80A
2012 Lawler C7

snichols · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:48 am Post subject:

kmag · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:18 am Post subject:

ML52K · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:03 am Post subject:

I would like to add an additional question to this conversation. Forgive me if I missed a reference to it earlier in this conversation.

Do Monette trumpets with integral screw-in mouthpieces have any gap at all? Does one who owns one on this forum, if anyone does, have the ability to look and determine if there is any structure of a gap at all in the "leadpipe" structure?

Thanks for insights.