Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject:
I watched the video in its entirety.
To save some TH'ers some trouble, he calls it a "leadpipe" instead of leaderpipe or mouthpipe. That will automatically and immediately discredit him to some.
All kidding aside, he states that gap is not about resistance, but intonation. Which is why he states, at 1:42, that it is not important to know how big your gap is. I can buy that it is a tuning mechanism, because if it is true that notes are "born" in the leadipipe, then it makes a lot of sense that the distance between the player's chops (or maybe it's the venturi, or some point in the backbore), and the crucial spot in the leadpipe for each note is important.
I do have some issues with the vid though. When he mentions "resonance" as a factor, doesn't that depend on the physical space you're playing in? Maybe it can be detected independent of the room, I don't know. Blowing air on a trumpet and feeling for resistance or lack thereof doesn't seem like a good test to me, because it's not the same as playing the trumpet. And at the end of the vid he is selling a do-hickey after all.
But thinking that there needs to be a gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the leadpipe, that it should be there, that it helps to have that gap itself, just doesn't make sense to me. The only reason there is a gap is so we can have removable mouthpieces.
And Schilke's paper states that there should be no gap, and that the thickness of the metal of the mouthpiece and the leadpipe should match. Now, it's not catastrophic to the gap theory to not have Renold Schilke on board. It would just be better if he was, I'm sure. (I realize that those who offer that Schilke recanted gaplessness are not stating his paper supports the gap theory). _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I am assuming there can not be gap issues since there is no gap.
For many trumpets, not having a gap is itself an issue. That's great that your horn plays well, but for most horns, zero gap won't be the ideal setup.
I guess my question is more about trumpets that were never designed, or manufactured, to have a gap at all. Since it is completely smooth the only way to get a gap would be to replace the leadpipe. I could see it being an issue if it is designed to have a gap but many older trumpets do not. I am wondering if the gap is intentional for the designers or was it just easier to build them with a gap thus reducing manufacturing costs.
Define a "gap" - is it an acoustic phenomenon whereby the insertion depth of the mouthpiece affects the intonation pattern, or is it the presence of a space between two ledges (step-up out of the mouthpiece and step-down into the leadpipe)?
Anecdotally, I've noticed a significant difference when altering the insertion depth of mouthpieces on cornet (I have a couple of Matt Frost's cornet backbores and a full set of cornet sleeves to go with them) - on that basis, I see gap as the former.
In theory it should be possible to take the GR gap formula (see my post further up the thread) and test whether gap is optimised when calculating without a value for receiver ID minus venturi ID (ie: no ledge there)... You've still got the mouthpiece exit wall thickness X5 which should be the target "gap" between the shank-end and the point at which the receiver taper ends....
If, in practice, this turns out to be the optimum insertion depth on a given horn/MP combo then I suppose it'd be fair to assume that the math still holds in that case and that the phenomenon is similar.
May have to have a play with this and see if this actually is the case (as best I can tell).
Again, as above, if I've got this wrong I'm happy to be corrected...
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: Gap
Reynold Schilke advocated zero gap for years and Vincent Bach long ago determined 1/8th inch was optimum for a Bb trumpet. On my Scodwell USA trumpets I set the gap at 1/8th inch with a standard Bach shank and feel that is ideal. Zero gap gives me a "tubby" feeling with little center and too much gap past 1/8th inch tends to make the blow on the tight side. As Monette shanks are much shorter than the norm, I really can't speak to that other than when I replaced a receiver on a Kanstul C (player used Monette mouthpieces) to measure an 1/8th, the flat D in the staff improved.
Resonance is referring to the support of the overtones. When the intonation of the horn mouthpiece system is as good as possible by adjusting gap for you the individual and the equipment you are using you get more overtone support. This is the resonance being sited. Yes he sells gap adjustable mouthpieces he has also done very extensive research on this topic and believes in the science behind the product. In other words K.O. believes the science is so compelling that his product uses an adjustable system. You can believe or not believe in the effects of gap. Once you experience the changes in playability for yourself you then believe. If you do not experience a change then you don’t.
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject:
Thanks Jon,
What K.O. says in the video makes a lot of sense to me, and I don't "question" it per se, other than the explicit comments I made earlier. In an earlier post I wondered the same thing that he asserts from his research, that gap is not about the distance of the small end of the mouthpiece from the beginning of the leadpipe, but rather some point in or near the cup, from the nodal points in the leadpipe.
I debated for a while whether to add to this discussion, but I'm a sucker for punishment. So here I go.
I find the claim that the gap affects fluid resistance troubling. I say fluid resistance because that is different than playing resistance. The resistance we feel when we play the trumpet is from the opening and closing of the lips, not the walls of the trumpet.
If gap was about fluid resistance, then zero gap would obviously be one solution. But it is well established that when a trumpet/mpc have zero gap, the instrument "slots" poorly. In acoustics-speak, it would be that the instrument has impedance peaks that are poorly differentiated (too low, or too wide). For anyone unfamiliar, THIS is an impedance graph. The peaks are notes in the harmonic series. The mouthpiece gap helps the trumpet have more distinct impedance peaks ("slots") in the upper partials, where the acoustics of the mouthpiece are dominant, and the acoustics of the bell matter less.
In addition, the insertion depth of the mouthpiece plays a key role in the tuning notes in the mid to upper register.
I learned this via personal experience. My Bb trumpet used to have a horribly sharp G5. Like, 20 cents sharp. I could lip it down if I was playing loudly, but it sounded bad, and I couldn't lip it at all if I was playing softly. So I made a shim that enlarged the gap. I did this via experimentation, and didn't worry about the measurement at the time, but it used to be 0.15", and now it is 0.3". Obviously, this is pretty big. And the G5 is perfectly in tune now, and F5 is pretty good too. This did lower E4/Eb4/D4, which were actually quite high before as I didn't have to lip them almost at all. Is there more resistance? Actually, I didn't really notice a change at all. I can still lip trill like crazy. In fact, they got better after I made the shim. Now, my experience regarding resistance will not go for everyone, but I will ask the question: Why is there no talk about the effect of the gap on intonation from companies like GR and Harrelson? GR values precision, and Harrelson values efficiency. This seems like a place where both are unaware of an important piece of the overall puzzle.
Anyway, my class in acoustics, and my own personal experience indicate, at least to me, that the correct gap is far more about tuning notes than fluid resistance. Having a trumpet that is as in-tune as possible helps your sound (a harmonic series that is in tune with itself sounds better than one that isn't) and accuracy (you don't have to lip certain notes as much).
This is a topic that always polarizes everyone, and I'm sure my response will upset some people. That is not my aim. My aim is to find the facts, and I've done a lot of research and some experimentation to find those facts. And what I have found matches KO, Bob Reeves, and even Dave Monette.
I know that GR himself and some of his employees regularly post here. If any of them would like to respond to my question, I'd absolutely welcome it. _________________ PhD Candidate in Performance
University of Melbourne
Bach Bb/C, Schilke Eb/Picc
I debated for a while whether to add to this discussion, but I'm a sucker for punishment. So here I go.
I find the claim that the gap affects fluid resistance troubling. I say fluid resistance because that is different than playing resistance. The resistance we feel when we play the trumpet is from the opening and closing of the lips, not the walls of the trumpet.
If gap was about fluid resistance, then zero gap would obviously be one solution. But it is well established that when a trumpet/mpc have zero gap, the instrument "slots" poorly. In acoustics-speak, it would be that the instrument has impedance peaks that are poorly differentiated (too low, or too wide). For anyone unfamiliar, THIS is an impedance graph. The peaks are notes in the harmonic series. The mouthpiece gap helps the trumpet have more distinct impedance peaks ("slots") in the upper partials, where the acoustics of the mouthpiece are dominant, and the acoustics of the bell matter less.
In addition, the insertion depth of the mouthpiece plays a key role in the tuning notes in the mid to upper register.
I learned this via personal experience. My Bb trumpet used to have a horribly sharp G5. Like, 20 cents sharp. I could lip it down if I was playing loudly, but it sounded bad, and I couldn't lip it at all if I was playing softly. So I made a shim that enlarged the gap. I did this via experimentation, and didn't worry about the measurement at the time, but it used to be 0.15", and now it is 0.3". Obviously, this is pretty big. And the G5 is perfectly in tune now, and F5 is pretty good too. This did lower E4/Eb4/D4, which were actually quite high before as I didn't have to lip them almost at all. Is there more resistance? Actually, I didn't really notice a change at all. I can still lip trill like crazy. In fact, they got better after I made the shim. Now, my experience regarding resistance will not go for everyone, but I will ask the question: Why is there no talk about the effect of the gap on intonation from companies like GR and Harrelson? GR values precision, and Harrelson values efficiency. This seems like a place where both are unaware of an important piece of the overall puzzle.
Anyway, my class in acoustics, and my own personal experience indicate, at least to me, that the correct gap is far more about tuning notes than fluid resistance. Having a trumpet that is as in-tune as possible helps your sound (a harmonic series that is in tune with itself sounds better than one that isn't) and accuracy (you don't have to lip certain notes as much).
This is a topic that always polarizes everyone, and I'm sure my response will upset some people. That is not my aim. My aim is to find the facts, and I've done a lot of research and some experimentation to find those facts. And what I have found matches KO, Bob Reeves, and even Dave Monette.
I know that GR himself and some of his employees regularly post here. If any of them would like to respond to my question, I'd absolutely welcome it.
I don't think you need to worry about "upsetting" anyone. You mention GR and Harrelson not referring to pitch in their gap discussions, but I know other manufacturers do, Reeves being one of them. While I don't think gap is about fluid resistance, I think that's an aspect involved. And I don't think anyone makes the argument that it's just about minimizing resistance, which is why not many people opt for the zero-gap setup. I think most people are looking at what you discussed: better pitch, better slotting, and maybe to a lesser extent, finding the ideal amount of resistance (not necessarily less).
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:48 am Post subject:
kmag wrote:
snichols wrote:
kmag wrote:
I am assuming there can not be gap issues since there is no gap.
For many trumpets, not having a gap is itself an issue. That's great that your horn plays well, but for most horns, zero gap won't be the ideal setup.
I guess my question is more about trumpets that were never designed, or manufactured, to have a gap at all. Since it is completely smooth the only way to get a gap would be to replace the leadpipe. I could see it being an issue if it is designed to have a gap but many older trumpets do not. I am wondering if the gap is intentional for the designers or was it just easier to build them with a gap thus reducing manufacturing costs.
Hi kmag
If you mean that your trumpet is like a lot of short model cornets in that rather than the mouthpiece receiver being inserted over the leadpipe in such a way that there is a ledge at the top of the leadpipe which allows an actual gap, there is a flat solder ring where the leadpipe meets the mouthpiece receiver, in my personal experience after having experimented a lot in thi regard on short model cornets which can't have an actual gap, I would say that regardless of whether there can be an actual gap, varying the amount that the mouthpiece inserts into the receiver has an equivalent (although possibly lesser) effect.
When I bought my Bach 37 used, it had had the leadpipe replaced. As far as I can tell there is no ledge at the top of the leadpipe at all (maybe it has somehow been filed flat). I've had a good look with a torch after failing to find the ledge with a top pick, and there just isn't one. Altering the insertion amount however has the same affect as altering the gap on my Bach 184ML cornet, which definitely does have a ledge at the top of the leadpipe, and Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, which also has a definite ledge. Obviously I am comparing different instruments, so it is hard to determine the exact reason, but my Bach 37 seems to work better with a wider range of insertion amounts than my Xeno II, possibly owing to it not having an actual gap.
I really hope that this will help.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 23 Jun 2013 Posts: 136 Location: Seattle WA.
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:38 am Post subject:
Louise Finch wrote:
kmag wrote:
snichols wrote:
kmag wrote:
I am assuming there can not be gap issues since there is no gap.
For many trumpets, not having a gap is itself an issue. That's great that your horn plays well, but for most horns, zero gap won't be the ideal setup.
I guess my question is more about trumpets that were never designed, or manufactured, to have a gap at all. Since it is completely smooth the only way to get a gap would be to replace the leadpipe. I could see it being an issue if it is designed to have a gap but many older trumpets do not. I am wondering if the gap is intentional for the designers or was it just easier to build them with a gap thus reducing manufacturing costs.
Hi kmag
If you mean that your trumpet is like a lot of short model cornets in that rather than the mouthpiece receiver being inserted over the leadpipe in such a way that there is a ledge at the top of the leadpipe which allows an actual gap, there is a flat solder ring where the leadpipe meets the mouthpiece receiver, in my personal experience after having experimented a lot in thi regard on short model cornets which can't have an actual gap, I would say that regardless of whether there can be an actual gap, varying the amount that the mouthpiece inserts into the receiver has an equivalent (although possibly lesser) effect.
When I bought my Bach 37 used, it had had the leadpipe replaced. As far as I can tell there is no ledge at the top of the leadpipe at all (maybe it has somehow been filed flat). I've had a good look with a torch after failing to find the ledge with a top pick, and there just isn't one. Altering the insertion amount however has the same affect as altering the gap on my Bach 184ML cornet, which definitely does have a ledge at the top of the leadpipe, and Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, which also has a definite ledge. Obviously I am comparing different instruments, so it is hard to determine the exact reason, but my Bach 37 seems to work better with a wider range of insertion amounts than my Xeno II, possibly owing to it not having an actual gap.
I really hope that this will help.
Take care
Lou
That does help. It also explains why the original Heim mouthpiece that came with the trumpet is a little longer than most. In this case it is probably not so much about gap but proper tuning length. This trumpet also was built before they had standardized the mouthpiece shanks. Modern mouthpieces wobble in it. It goes to show that even when it does not look like much has changed over the decades, visually, there is a lot going on in trumpet design that does not meet the eye. Sometimes for playability and sometimes to reduce cost. _________________ Kurt Magnuson
Joined: 24 Jan 2012 Posts: 433 Location: Newhall California
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:38 am Post subject:
I want to thank everyone for engaging in this discussion about the annulus, or gap. Anyone who has spoken to me or attended one of my seminars knows how much I believe in adjusting the gap in order to maximize the sound/performance of your mouthpiece/trumpet set-up.
It seems as though I did a not so good job of communicating some of my studies and conclusions in my "Hey Kids" interview and so I would like to clarify as best as I can.
I agree with the poll referenced in another thread in what I read to be a definition of the gap. Colloquially, the gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece and the start of the leadpipe. That is what the gap is and changing this dimension affects the intonation alignment of the different modes.
IMHO, the goal of adjusting the gap is to get the highest percentage of modes in tune with themselves as possible. This will give you the easiest play and most resonant sound possible with your current equipment.
Later in the interview I talk about how lip penetration affects the intonation. I am not saying the gap or the tuning effect of the gap starts in the cup. Remember the gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece and the start of the leadpipe.
I mention the tuning effect of lip penetration as one of the main reasons the best gap cannot be calculated. If you understand that lip penetration affects tuning, then you understand that any equation that calculates the gap without including lip penetration as a variable will not work. This is because lip penetration changes from player to player even on the same mouthpiece because of a number of human factors (lip fleshiness, tooth structure, how hard they blow, etc).
It is for this reason that I am a fan of determining the best gap for each mouthpiece and trumpet and player through experimentation. It's easy and it works.
If you really want to dig into this you will note that you can, by changing the rim diameter and/or shape, affect the intonation as well. These parameters vary the lip penetration and can be used to help the relative intonation and thus improve playability and sound. IMHO, this is cumbersome and that is why it is not my primary method of maximizing intonation.
As a mouthpiece designer, I have also studied the change in lip penetration as a player changes registers and how this affects intonation. It is difficult to design mouthpieces that maintain good intonation as the lip penetration changes from register to register. I have done my best to design pieces that take this into account and continue to study this and many other aspects of the player-mouthpiece-trumpet system because, simply, I'm a trumpet geek first!
I hope this clarifies things and please have great gigs!
If you have any questions about Gap or our equipment please give us a call.
K.O. Skinsnes _________________ Experience the Future...
It's the conn patent where they patent the idea of changing taper rates in conical sections to improve intonation, and also patents the gap and explains how it affects intonation.
Along the way it also talks about slide lengths
It patents a gap of .112 inches (if I remember correctly) which a tiny bit less than 1/8th inch. That is given a Venturi of .430 (small) and some other parameters.
It's a pretty tough slog refueling to the graphs and bouncing around from text to illustration every other sentence, but once you get the hang of it and submit to process you can start understanding it. Earle Kent was the main designer and accoustician at conn. Essentially these patents are for the conn constellation 3rd generation with the electroformed lead pipe. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Joined: 24 Jan 2012 Posts: 433 Location: Newhall California
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:03 am Post subject:
Thanks for posting the Kent patent. This, along with the writings of Schilke and many others are certainly what we study when trying to understand the prior art of mouthpiece and trumpet design. The only way to move forward in our understanding is to start with the works of others and then attempt to move forward.
As Doug points out, this patent is dealing with a particular horn and mouthpiece. It does show pitch shifts as we talk about but they are using equivalent length numbers which are difficult to understand.
I like to explain the gap in musical terms that can help us as trumpet players not only understand what is going on, but find solutions that make playing more enjoyable.
Many of the "optimal gap solutions" are based on intuitive approaches using airflow. My studies have shown that the main changes happening when you change the gap are acoustic changes as I show in many of my videos.
As players, we don't need to know any of the science to decide if adjusting the gap is something we should consider. You can put a small strip of paper on the shank of your mouthpiece and see if anything changes for you. If you perceive a change (either positive or negative) you have shown yourself that changing the gap does have an effect. If it does nothing for you, you can move on with your life and not worry about the gap anymore.
If you read the Schilke writings, for example, and believe they make sense, get some sand paper and sand down the shank of your mouthpiece until it hits the leadpipe and then you will know for sure. I actually don't suggest you do this because my studies and experience show that very few players function well with little to no gap.
As far as my studies and explanations are concerned, look over our studies, explanations, and faqs and decide for yourself if it makes sense for you to go down the gap adjustment road. I've seen the correct gap completely transform a bad mouthpiece into Gabriels' mouthpiece on many occasions. http://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/
Whatever works for you, works for me... Feel free to call the shop if you'd like to "talk trumpet" - it's what we do.
Have great gigs!
K.O. Skinsnes _________________ Experience the Future...
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:59 am Post subject:
Does anyone in NYC stock gap sleeves, whether Stomvi or Reeves? I am going to have a mouthpiece cut and I'd like to go try out a bunch of sleeves to see for myself.
Thanks,
Brian _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
You could for less than $20 shipping round trip USPS priority flat rate send your mouthpiece to one of the shops in So Cal to have the job done and get the gap adjustable couplers/seeves you need. Either of these know what they are doing and it will be done right.
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject:
rufflicks wrote:
You could for less than $20 shipping round trip USPS priority flat rate send your mouthpiece to one of the shops in So Cal to have the job done and get the gap adjustable couplers/seeves you need. Either of these know what they are doing and it will be done right.
Best, Jon
I was going to take my mouthpiece to Josh Landress' place here in NYC, he drills the mouthpieces and he's local. I always like to spend my money at a place in the city if I can, but if I have to mail-order them I'll do that too, no big deal. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
K.O., you say; 'Many of the "optimal gap solutions" are based on intuitive approaches using airflow. My studies have shown that the main changes happening when you change the gap are acoustic changes'
Do you think that the little turned rings in various lengths placed in the gap as used by Harrelson and others do the job, or does the fact that they don't change the axial position of the mouthpiece itself mean they won't have the correct effect?
Just for your information my Bb Bach trumpet receiver and my Stork mouthpiece has a gap of 1 1/4 inch or 3 cm. My Bach 184 cornet with a Toshi mouthpiece has a 1 inch or approximately 2.5 cm's and both horns slot well!? Go figure.
Just for your information my Bb Bach trumpet receiver and my Stork mouthpiece has a gap of 1 1/4 inch or 3 cm. My Bach 184 cornet with a Toshi mouthpiece has a 1 inch or approximately 2.5 cm's and both horns slot well!? Go figure.
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject:
oxleyk wrote:
trumpet56 wrote:
Just for your information my Bb Bach trumpet receiver and my Stork mouthpiece has a gap of 1 1/4 inch or 3 cm. My Bach 184 cornet with a Toshi mouthpiece has a 1 inch or approximately 2.5 cm's and both horns slot well!? Go figure.
Where exactly are you measuring the gap?
I think trumpet56 is talking about the length of shank engagement. A 1 1/4 inch gap is extreme. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
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