Bach Mouthpieces Old and New, Equivalents

cgaiii

After using the same mouthpiece (1966 or 67 Bach 5C, Early Elkhart I believe, bought new in grade school) longer than most people have been alive, I am on the quest for a slightly more open mouthpiece for my new trumpet (Schilke X3L, AS in silver). On the advice of Robert Chernault at Mouthpiece Express, I am auditioning a modern Bach 5c and 3c with a view toward having ME open the throat a little (after experimenting with more open Schilke and Yamaha MPs).
My old 5c is much closer to the modern 3c (or so it feels to me) than the modern 5c. I have heard about the legendary inconsistency of Bach, but the old mouthpiece I have feels like it has a little more cup (volume?, diameter? combination of both?) even than the modern 3c. The modern 3c is playable and comfortable in terms of the contact, but just a off in size.
Question 1: Am I nuts and/or being fooled by something else like the slick new silver vs. the worn old piece? Or is it possible, that my old 5c is somewhat larger than the new 3c? Should I try a 2c?
Question 2: Are newer Bach MPs closer to specs or at least more consistent than old ones?
Question 3: Any other suggestions for direction in this quest? (I am also considering the Stomvi system with a their Bach rim, but I want to get this size thing down first.)
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

GeorgeB · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:21 am Post subject:

Bach is definitely inconsistent. But this I can say for certain because I have both a newer 3C and a new 5C. The cup sizes are pretty much the same but the 3C is a hair larger than the 5C and that suits me because I found the 3C just a tad too large. Also, I don't know about your 5C but the newer model's rim is slightly rounded and has very little bite.
Now I still have a Bach 10.5 C I bought when I first started playing in 1953 and last year I bought a Bach 10.5CW and its inner rim is smaller than the 1953 model. Go figure.
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet

VetPsychWars · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:01 am Post subject:

The 10-1/2CW is going to feel vastly different because the rim shape is vastly different. I don't know who asked for that torture device.

You may find the 10-3/4 line or the 10-1/2DW more to your liking.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

jaysonr · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:03 am Post subject:

This may sound odd, but try a modern 1-1/2C and see if that's closer to the 5C than a 3C.
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3 John 2

jadickson

Jerry · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:08 am Post subject:

A Bach 5C is deeper than a Bach 3C. A Bach 3C is slightly wider than a Bach 5C. So a Bach 5C has greater volume than a Bach 3C.

Have you made the assumption that all Bach C cups have essentially the same depth? If so, that assumption is incorrect.

cgaiii · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject:

jaysonr · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject:

jaysonr · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject:

cheiden · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject:

I concur that the modern 1.5C would probably be closer to the 5C you're describing than any of the 3C's.

Other options would be the Curry 5C which has already been said to better approximate the older MV Bachs.

And though I don't have experience with it, it might be novel to try the Bach 3B. That would give you a deeper cup and also a bigger #7 backbore. The Kanstul Comparator does show the Bach 2C to be really similar to the MV 5C rim and cup if you want the standard backbore.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

cgaiii · Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject:

Thank you for all the information. It really helps navigate the maze of MPs. I guess I can assume my old 5c is closer to a Bach Mt. Vernon era shape, since there are no comparisons for the early Elkhart MPs. I played around with the comparator too with some interesting results. I will try a 1.5c. I also have on audition a Schilke 13C4, which also looks close, so I will work that into the experiments for comparison. (It would give me the slightly larger throat without getting it opened.) I'll look into the Curry 5c if these do not prove satisfactory.
I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge here.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

I have played a Schilke 13C4 seeing if it might be an alternative to a 3C - It is most definitely not...In my experience and opinion, it is nothing like any Bach mouthpiece I have ever played.

The rim is fairly flat and it feels small - to me. I haven't done much with a 5C, but I have played a 1 1/4C, 2C, 3C, 7C, and even a 1X for a very brief time.

Right now, I am using both a 3C and a 7C.

My tone and overall playing are much better on a Bach. I did not have a good, resonant, robust tone on that particular Schilke, In fairness, I have not played any other Schilke mouthpieces than the 13C4. Maybe the 13C4 is more like a 5C...don't know, But, I have a feeling the rims will be very different, and for me, the rim is a major factor in how I get along with any mouthpiece.

Many people may favor Bach or Schilke, but usually not both. One of the other.

cgaiii · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:19 am Post subject:

Interesting observation on Bach vs. Schilke.
I tried the Schilke 13C4. As you predicted it is a reject, but interestingly less for the rim (though it is flatter), but because it does nothing to solve the initial problem. I wanted to check it out because I though it might be a shortcut (I know, there are no shortcuts) to getting the more open mouthpiece similar to my old 5c. I was lead to this because the Schilke 12 that came with the trumpet is more open and this one supposedly has the same throat. However, the throat is small like the Bachs, so there is absolutely no reason to go that route and the Bachs are definitely more familiar.
On to trying the 1.5c. Got to get my hands on one.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Jerry · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:20 am Post subject:

The standard Schilke backbore (c) is larger than the standard Bach backbore (10).

rockford · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject:

It's important to know that Bach mouthpieces evolved over time and were not designed as a set. That's why a 5c c cup is different than a 3C c cup. They really should be looked at as individual custom pieces with the cup designation as a general guideline.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

dcjway · Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject:

I have an old NY Bach 3C and a couple of new ones and I definitely think the NY is a little deeper and has more cup volume. I also have a few Mt Vernon Bach 6C and they seem to be more bowl like. I've heard that not all "C" cups are the same with Bach, that the 6C cup is different then the 3C cup and the 5C cup is different then the 6C and 3C and so on. I even have a 17C1 that has it's own C cup. I think my NY 3C seems more like a modern 3B.

As far as open throats, I have recently started lessons with Jeff Purtle and am now using a Claude Gordon personal with a #20 throat. Big change I feel like I'm starting all over again, but I have a glimpse of the logic in it and like everything about the trumpet it takes work, of course nothing worth having comes easy. Besides being a great guy I trust Jeff is leading me in the right direction. I'm blessed to be able to study with someone who studied with Claude Gordon who in turn studied with the great Herbert Clarke. If I remain teachable I just might learn something.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.
_________________
Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate

VetPsychWars · Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:04 am Post subject:

dr_trumpet · Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject:

I have a NY 7C that has a flatter rim contour than the newer 7Cs, and is a bit larger in cup diameter and depth. These were confirmed with measurements and with the Kanstul Comparitor. To me, my NY 7C is very playable for me, and I like it. My newer 7Cs are not, and possess too sharp an inner edge for my liking. I can see why Mr. Herseth liked the NY 7C for orchestral playing as well, because it is very comfortable. This from a confirmed Monette B1-5M player who also likes a Bach 1C rim. Different eras of Bach mouthpieces are different in size, shape and even design. Usually....

The 5C is a great starting point for some of my students, and many stay there because the do not like the feel and shallower cup of a 3C. Some use a 5C for concert work, and a 3C for marching and jazz. If I recall correctly, Gerard Schwartz used a 5C as his mouthpiece when playing in the NY Philharmonic.

My trumpet teacher at Butler University was the principal of the ISO, and he played a 2 3/4C at the time. Not asked lately what he is playing, but I hear that Conrad Jones (new ISO principal) plays a 3C.

If it works, it works. Numbers and measurements matter less than the product. They get you a comparable standard between makers. But they do not tell you it will work, or it won't. The player makes that decision.
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

dcjway · Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject:

I thought Mr. Herseth got the job using a 7B, nice piece I have one that came with my 34 NY Bach.
_________________
Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate