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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dcjway wrote: | | I thought Mr. Herseth got the job using a 7B, nice piece I have one that came with my 34 NY Bach. |
There are a couple other threads on here that clarify that...the 7B rumor is incorrect, it was a NY Bach 7C.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1216449
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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dcjway
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Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Wilmington, De
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | | dcjway wrote: | | I thought Mr. Herseth got the job using a 7B, nice piece I have one that came with my 34 NY Bach. |
There are a couple other threads on here that clarify that...the 7B rumor is incorrect, it was a NY Bach 7C.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1216449 |
Thank you. 
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Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate |
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dbacon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| dbacon wrote: | | I wonder how many professional Orchestral Trumpet Players perform regularly with a Bach 7C? |
It would be a matter of going around to their individual websites and seeing what they say, or someone on here knowing what they play and reporting as such.
And, most everyone we have discussed is playing or did play in a North American orchestra. The choices of mouthpiece and instrument are far more divergent when one considers the orchestras worldwide.
Al
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Bach Mouthpieces Old and New, Equivalents |
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| cgaiii wrote: | After using the same mouthpiece (1966 or 67 Bach 5C, Early Elkhart I believe, bought new in grade school) longer than most people have been alive, I am on the quest for a slightly more open mouthpiece for my new trumpet (Schilke X3L, AS in silver). On the advice of Robert Chernault at Mouthpiece Express, I am auditioning a modern Bach 5c and 3c with a view toward having ME open the throat a little (after experimenting with more open Schilke and Yamaha MPs).
My old 5c is much closer to the modern 3c (or so it feels to me) than the modern 5c. I have heard about the legendary inconsistency of Bach, but the old mouthpiece I have feels like it has a little more cup (volume?, diameter? combination of both?) even than the modern 3c. The modern 3c is playable and comfortable in terms of the contact, but just a off in size.
Question 1: Am I nuts and/or being fooled by something else like the slick new silver vs. the worn old piece? Or is it possible, that my old 5c is somewhat larger than the new 3c? Should I try a 2c?
Question 2: Are newer Bach MPs closer to specs or at least more consistent than old ones?
Question 3: Any other suggestions for direction in this quest? (I am also considering the Stomvi system with a their Bach rim, but I want to get this size thing down first.) |
Hi cgaiii
Since you have played the same mouthpiece for so long, I would personally suggest having it copied. Jim New copied mine whilst still at Kanstul, but I'm not sure whether he personally has the equipment in his new James R New workshop to scan mouthpieces. I would strongly suggest asking him.
If he is unable to do this, Matt Frost and Doug Meeuwsen (lipshurt on this forum) come to mind:
http://www.frostcustombrass.net/services.html
http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/Mouthpiece_Copies.html
Having your mouthpiece copied, allows you to keep to the same cup and rim, while whilst preserving your original mouthpiece, you are able to experiment with different throat sizes, and if as I have done, you have modular top copies made of the cup end of your mouthpiece, you can also experiment with different backbores.
I really hope that this will help.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Just to follow up on this.
I got hold of a new Bach 1.5 C, which many have said is close to the Mt. Vernon 5c. (As others pointed out the Kanstul comparator also shows these as being very close.) Only problem is that my 5c is from 1966 or so (early Elkhart).
When I first played the 1.5c, I was back in the comfort zone of the 1966 5c. They are not identical, and of course one is old and worn and the other is shiny new, but it is definitely the best fit I have found.
I am pretty comfortable with both the new 3c (a little small) and the 1.5c, but the latter is definitely a better match for the old 5c.
I also tried new 5c (too small) and 2c (closer to new 5c than to my old 5c) in the Bach line.
I think I have found the mouthpiece I can use for my experiment in opening the throat a little for my new horn.
Thanks to all for the insights and guiding me in the right direction.
One question I still have is:
Are the current Bach mouthpieces consistent? Would one 1.5c match another closely? Or would I have to have them both in hand? (My reason for asking is that I might like to have one modified and keep one unmodified, but I would want them to be the same.)
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Mouthpieces Old and New, Equivalents |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
Since you have played the same mouthpiece for so long, I would personally suggest having it copied. Jim New copied mine whilst still at Kanstul, but I'm not sure whether he personally has the equipment in his new James R New workshop to scan mouthpieces. I would strongly suggest asking him.
If he is unable to do this, Matt Frost and Doug Meeuwsen (lipshurt on this forum) come to mind:
http://www.frostcustombrass.net/services.html
http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/Mouthpiece_Copies.html
Having your mouthpiece copied, allows you to keep to the same cup and rim, while whilst preserving your original mouthpiece, you are able to experiment with different throat sizes, and if as I have done, you have modular top copies made of the cup end of your mouthpiece, you can also experiment with different backbores. |
Thanks for this interesting information and idea. Since the 1.5c match is quite comfortable right now -- I'll give it a little while before acting -- I will start with having the throat opened on one of them, but I am glad to know these copying options are out there, especially with what seems to be the individuality of old mouthpieces.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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jaysonr
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | Just to follow up on this.
I got hold of a new Bach 1.5 C, which many have said is close to the Mt. Vernon 5c. (As others pointed out the Kanstul comparator also shows these as being very close.) Only problem is that my 5c is from 1966 or so (early Elkhart).
When I first played the 1.5c, I was back in the comfort zone of the 1966 5c. They are not identical, and of course one is old and worn and the other is shiny new, but it is definitely the best fit I have found.
I am pretty comfortable with both the new 3c (a little small) and the 1.5c, but the latter is definitely a better match for the old 5c.
I also tried new 5c (too small) and 2c (closer to new 5c than to my old 5c) in the Bach line.
I think I have found the mouthpiece I can use for my experiment in opening the throat a little for my new horn.
Thanks to all for the insights and guiding me in the right direction.
One question I still have is:
Are the current Bach mouthpieces consistent? Would one 1.5c match another closely? Or would I have to have them both in hand? (My reason for asking is that I might like to have one modified and keep one unmodified, but I would want them to be the same.) |
I'm glad the 1.5C worked out for you. I've found recent Bach mouthpieces to be consistent, so I don't think you'd have any trouble ordering another w/ a more open throat. Check w/ Osmun—they probably have a 1.5C in stock and will modify and ship the same day usually, and they do great work at a great price.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Mouthpieces Old and New, Equivalents |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
Since you have played the same mouthpiece for so long, I would personally suggest having it copied. Jim New copied mine whilst still at Kanstul, but I'm not sure whether he personally has the equipment in his new James R New workshop to scan mouthpieces. I would strongly suggest asking him.
If he is unable to do this, Matt Frost and Doug Meeuwsen (lipshurt on this forum) come to mind:
http://www.frostcustombrass.net/services.html
http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/Mouthpiece_Copies.html
Having your mouthpiece copied, allows you to keep to the same cup and rim, while whilst preserving your original mouthpiece, you are able to experiment with different throat sizes, and if as I have done, you have modular top copies made of the cup end of your mouthpiece, you can also experiment with different backbores. |
Thanks for this interesting information and idea.
Hi cgaiii
You are very welcome.
Since the 1.5c match is quite comfortable right now -- I'll give it a little while before acting --
I fully understand.
I will start with having the throat opened on one of them, but I am glad to know these copying options are out there, especially with what seems to be the individuality of old mouthpieces.
I really hope that this all works out well for you.
Take care
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| jaysonr wrote: |
I'm glad the 1.5C worked out for you. I've found recent Bach mouthpieces to be consistent, so I don't think you'd have any trouble ordering another w/ a more open throat. Check w/ Osmun—they probably have a 1.5C in stock and will modify and ship the same day usually, and they do great work at a great price. |
Wow. I checked ou te Osmun site. Short turn-around and low price for opening the throat of a MP. Could there be some difference between what Mouthpiece Express and Osmun do? I am puzzled at the difference but there is not description of the work.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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jaysonr
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | jaysonr wrote: |
I'm glad the 1.5C worked out for you. I've found recent Bach mouthpieces to be consistent, so I don't think you'd have any trouble ordering another w/ a more open throat. Check w/ Osmun—they probably have a 1.5C in stock and will modify and ship the same day usually, and they do great work at a great price. |
Wow. I checked ou te Osmun site. Short turn-around and low price for opening the throat of a MP. Could there be some difference between what Mouthpiece Express and Osmun do? I am puzzled at the difference but there is not description of the work. |
Osmun (and Dillon) are faster, and better than Mouthpiece Express, in my opinion and experience. I had a piece I bought second hand which had been modified by M.E., and the throat was very cylindrical and seemed to have just been drilled out. Osmun and Dillon do great work for both throat and backbore alteration.
_________________
Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | | dcjway wrote: | | I thought Mr. Herseth got the job using a 7B, nice piece I have one that came with my 34 NY Bach. |
There are a couple other threads on here that clarify that...the 7B rumor is incorrect, it was a NY Bach 7C.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1216449 |
With all due respect Dr. Lilly, I think you might be wrong. I just searched all six pages of the topic thread you referenced to support your assertion (I used the "Find" feature of my Firefox Web Browser searching for each time "7C" appears). There are no claims, anywhere in that entire thread that Herseth played his audition with a 7C, let alone any references to real evidence supporting that idea. If you have some evidence you could refer us to that provides documentation of which mouthpiece Herseth actually used for his audition that would be great.
Though Herseth does not specifically state that he played his audition on a 7B, in the ITG Interview Article Adolph Herseth: In a Class by Himself this is what Herseth himself had to say about the mouthpieces he used in his first few years with the CSO:
https://s25.postimg.org/no9ewjtxr/Adolph_Herseth_7_B.jpg
Barring any evidence to the contrary, it seems to me that given the fact that Herseth preferred his 7B over his 7C, the 7B would be his choice when playing what he knew was going to be the most important audition of his life. Personally, I didn't audition for the CSO on my second favorite mouthpiece (but given that I lost, maybe I should have). 
Cheers,
John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Interesting experience. I wrote both ME and O and received the following responses very quickly from Lisa at ME and Tim at O (nice people all around):
ME: The custom department uses a CNC Lathe to open the throats up & a special tool & then re silver plates the opening I know that is not very detailed, but I don't do it  (also noted that it takes about 2 weeks)
O: You can call us anytime and place an order over the phone, OR you can order mouthpieces right off our web store with alterations.
We use the highest quality reamers and lathes to drill our throats. We literally alter dozens of mouthpieces per week.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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jaysonr
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | Interesting experience. I wrote both ME and O and received the following responses very quickly from Lisa at ME and Tim at O (nice people all around):
ME: The custom department uses a CNC Lathe to open the throats up & a special tool & then re silver plates the opening I know that is not very detailed, but I don't do it (also noted that it takes about 2 weeks)
O: You can call us anytime and place an order over the phone, OR you can order mouthpieces right off our web store with alterations.
We use the highest quality reamers and lathes to drill our throats. We literally alter dozens of mouthpieces per week. |
Since I bought my ME modified piece second hand, there is a chance someone had opened it further. It was an awful playing mouthpiece anyway, and I didn't keep it long.
The biggest difference for me was that ME takes 2 weeks to do it, and I've ordered pieces from Osmun in the morning, and it was altered and in the mail by that afternoon.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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cgaiii
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Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Were they also re-plated in that time?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
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Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I should say, plated where the throat was opened.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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jaysonr
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | I should say, plated where the throat was opened. |
I've never noticed. I've only had one modified mouthpiece which had noticeable raw brass and that was a 5B underpart which had been widened to match a 1C rim. It was raw brass at the top of the cup and it was noticeably raw in the throat and backbore from modifications. Jeff Parke had done the work on that piece, and it was done while the customer waited (who I purchased it from), so that's likely why it wasn't spot plated.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jaysonr
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dbacon wrote: | | dr_trumpet wrote: | | dbacon wrote: | | I wonder how many professional Orchestral Trumpet Players perform regularly with a Bach 7C? |
It would be a matter of going around to their individual websites and seeing what they say, or someone on here knowing what they play and reporting as such.
And, most everyone we have discussed is playing or did play in a North American orchestra. The choices of mouthpiece and instrument are far more divergent when one considers the orchestras worldwide.
Al |
Do you know of any? |
American, international, or players on a 7C?
Michael Sachs has a detailed list of his equipment: http://michaelsachs.com/equipment-2/
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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dbacon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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