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Trumpet compression


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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thumb-on-a-hose analogy has virtually nothing to do with anything going on in or near a trumpet player's mouth while playing. It's a flawed analogy, and continually harping on it shows a lack of understanding of simple physics and fluid dynamics. While all kinds of expertise may be claimed by citing all kinds of incomplete academic studies, in the real world, the analogy falls flat on its face.

This flawed analogy is persistent, and some of those who adhere to it seem to be impervious to the simple laws of physics.

In the thumb-hose model, the thumb is the end of the system, and water squirts out into the open, where it does not and cannot exert any pressure. In a trumpet player's mouth, the "tunnel" between the tongue and the palate is not the end of the system. There are the teeth, and then the aperture where the lips part. And then the mouthpiece cup and bore, and then the lead pipe and the rest of the horn. A model that removes everything after the "tunnel", including the lip aperture, can hardly be used to explain anything going on in the lip aperture, unless you really don't understand the fluid dynamics.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my own playing and teaching, I don't think I've ever run into a case where a player would benefit from intentionally seeking to create compression (at least as I conceive of the term as people tend to use it) either between the lips or on the air inside the body. Most people I run into seem to overdo this already. I don't really think of using the tongue or blowing a little more energetically as compression and it seems like that's usually not what's being talked about. I don't see much benefit from thinking about squeezing anything.

If you're following something taught by someone like Bobby Shew or some other great player and teacher, that's one thing if you understand it, but third-hand attempts to compress whatever it is that we're trying to compress might not be conducive to music making.

Unless this is what is meant by compression:


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This reinforces the previous post that indicates that the trumpet generates useful resistance in the lower register (so the player doesn't have to) and that because the trumpet does not generate much useful resistance in the upper register it's up to the player to generate this resistance.


Not exactly.

Even though the impedance diminishes for successive high harmonics, an impedance still exists and it is significant for those notes (once the player has acquired the skill to play them).

Less impedance means that more air flow is required for the same loudness of tone. But the aperture is required to be sufficiently small (and firm) to ascend to these frequency. This increases the self-resistance of the aperture due to it's smaller size AND the greater air flow required through the smaller size for loudness.

This causes a SIGNIFICANT loss of air pressure through the smaller aperture on very high tones. Thus requiring the player to generate more pressure with his exhalation intensity.

Resistance of the player, at the aperture (and everywhere else), is ALWAYS a liability. And it absolutely NO SUBSTITE for the resistance due to impedance in the instrument. It is also HIGHLY dependent on 1. the size of the aperture and 2. the air flow required.

That is why lower notes seem less resistant overall. The aperture has less self resistance due to size and the air flow required is less (because these are the peak impedance modes)

Blowing through the flow resistance of the aperture contributes ZERO energy to the sound. Blowing into the standing wave in the horn (the resistance of the instrument due to impedance) is where we add power to the tone emitting from the instrument.

The player who can learn to play high notes without overly small apertures (favoring firmness over size to play those notes) can put more of the air power into the sound and less into overcoming the aperture resistance. This also requires LESS air pressure to play, not more. That is, it is more efficient.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
The thumb-on-a-hose analogy has virtually nothing to do with anything going on in or near a trumpet player's mouth while playing. It's a flawed analogy, and continually harping on it shows a lack of understanding of simple physics and fluid dynamics. While all kinds of expertise may be claimed by citing all kinds of incomplete academic studies, in the real world, the analogy falls flat on its face.

This flawed analogy is persistent, and some of those who adhere to it seem to be impervious to the simple laws of physics.

In the thumb-hose model, the thumb is the end of the system, and water squirts out into the open, where it does not and cannot exert any pressure. In a trumpet player's mouth, the "tunnel" between the tongue and the palate is not the end of the system. There are the teeth, and then the aperture where the lips part. And then the mouthpiece cup and bore, and then the lead pipe and the rest of the horn. A model that removes everything after the "tunnel", including the lip aperture, can hardly be used to explain anything going on in the lip aperture, unless you really don't understand the fluid dynamics.


Everything above is misinformation and is at odds with what nearly every single top-level pro trumpet player believes and nearly every top-level trumpet teacher teaches. I only wrote the word "nearly" in the prior sentence because while I don't know a single top-level pro player or teacher who believes the misinformation being spouted by two individuals here, I can't be certain none exist.

And having passed Engineering Physics 1, 2 and 3 (which includes Fluid Dynamics in the coursework), I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the hose and water stream analogy. The lip aperture is not being "removed" by the model, it is what is being affected in the model by the air and the tongue arch. What two people (mm55 and Kalijah) fail to grasp is that an up and forward arched tongue is pressed right up against the top front teeth (the teeth actually form the top of the air tunnel at this point just before the air reaches the lips), and therefore is the very last thing the air passes through before reaching the lips and causing them to vibrate. As such, what the arching tongue does to the air has significant effect on what the air does to the lips. To claim otherwise is to claim that the water stream coming from a hose with a nozzle or thumb over the end cannot have any effect on the stone it hits in the driveway. The water shooting out of a nozzled hose makes the stone fly away fast. The air shooting out through the up and forward arched tongue makes the lips vibrate fast.

I don't mean to claim the lips or the facial muscles don't do anything. We all know we tighten our face muscles, particularly the corners of our mouth as we play higher. But trying to rely only on blowing, lip and face strength without proper tongue arch limits most players to around a High C, and usually a rather abrasive and uncontrolled one at that. Adding tongue arch to the equation is the key to unlocking the upper register.


Link


I'm going to follow Pops' example and make this a "one and done" post. There will probably be replies to what I just wrote from K and mm and based on past history they might be a bit acidic (maybe more than a bit in the case of the latter). But as the many multi-multi-multi paged topic threads of the past prove (including the many that eventually had to be moderated into oblivion), there's no sense in my debating with these people. It proves nothing and it solves nothing. Both are good guys and post lots of good stuff here.

I like them,
and I hope they like me,
though we sure disagree!


If anyone has any legitimate questions I will respond, time permitting.

Best wishes to all,

John Mohan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mohan wrote:
Quote:
, we arch our tongues (hopefully) which narrows the air stream into a tiny but powerful jet-like stream just before it hits our lips, and we tighten the muscles of our face and lips to resist the empowered air stream.


The air stream after a tongue arch has no more air pressure (or "empowerment") than the air before it. (It can safely be assumed that it has a bit less)

And we set the embouchure by the muscles of the lips and face to play a particular tone. The tongue moves to a comfortable position depending on the intensity of the aperture muscle action.


Quote:
The videos posted earlier in this topic thread by Jon and the one Scott posted made by Charlie Porter provide excellent and accurate information and you should watch them and study them carefully, several times each.


Actually they don't, they are filled with erroneous quasi-science and they don't understand how the system actually works on a purely technical level. They may be accepted as metaphorical at best. In that sense they may help players perform actions that are helpful. But the tongue arch does NOT compress the air. They could easily make the same point without resorting to junk science.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Expertise in trumpet playing does not equate to expertise in fluid dynamics, despite the "proof by incessant assertion." There are plenty metaphors that can help a trumpet player better understand how to play. But what a trumpet player feels while playing cannot be considered a scientific description of what's actually happening to the air. The videos cited are full of bad science.

Some players simply dismiss the science as irrelevant, and many of them are fine players indeed. I see no harm in that, although I'm not sure I understand why factual knowledge can be so disturbing to people. But repeated assertions of clearly incorrect bad science don't really benefit anyone.

"As such, what the arching tongue does to the air has significant effect on what the air does to the lips. To claim otherwise is to claim that the water stream coming from a hose with a nozzle or thumb over the end cannot have any effect on the stone it hits in the driveway. "

What utter nonsense!
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl,
Please help me get rid of the quasi science or misinformation according to the engineering and anatomy function understanding of the system. I honestly would like to be able to describe what to do with our bodies to make playing in the upper register the most efficient. I do not have the background that you do to apply the science to the motion, position or action we use.

Can you please explain what we need to do with our bodies. This is will make any future explanation more accurate and possibly eliminate confusion. I honestly would like to understand this better.

Best Jon
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
This reinforces the previous post that indicates that the trumpet generates useful resistance in the lower register (so the player doesn't have to) and that because the trumpet does not generate much useful resistance in the upper register it's up to the player to generate this resistance.

Sort of. In the middle register, feedback from impedance forces the lips to vibrate at certain frequencies. In the upper register, there isn't much impedance, so there isn't much feedback, so the trumpeter gets very little help in getting and keeping the lips vibrating those high pitches. The trumpeter isn't trying to create resistance (impedance), we're just trying to get the lips vibrating at very high pitches, and the horn isn't helping like it does in the middle register.

Thomas Moore wrote:
The difficulty that we all experience in playing very high notes is directly attributable to the lack of feedback to the lips at these high frequencies. That is, no matter how good your trumpet is, it isn't helping you play that high E. When playing notes in the staff, trumpeters rely on the fact that the feedback "slots" the lip vibrations into the correct pitch, leaving the artist to make only minor adjustments with her lips. But when playing above a C6 [high C] there is almost no feedback from the trumpet...

Professor Moore included a chart measuring impedance of a Bb trumpet in his article on impedance. I wish I could reproduce it here, but it's under copyright. Anyway, it shows impedance peaks measured for the frequencies of open notes in the harmonic scale, C4, G4, C5, E5, G5, Bb5, C6, etc. The note with the highest peak impedance is C5, our tuning C. Notes above C6 (high C) have minuscule peaks, and above E6 there's hardly any peak at all.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dusting off my inner Rumsfeld, I think these discussions so often go off the rails due to the following issue:

1a. There is what's actually physically happening - physics in reality.
1b. There is what should be physically happening - physics in the ideal and optimized situation.
2. There's what it feels like is happening - a form of feedback, but the body can be an uneven and unreliable messenger.
3. There's the mental signal in order to make the thing happen (what we think about to make the trumpet work). If the button in my brain that made me sound like Bud or Maynard was "wiggle my ears," it wouldn't matter as long as that button reliably worked.
4. There's what a teacher might say in order to get the player to do what they should be doing. The best teachers I've ever had dealt primarily with fixing the signal (since that's the only thing I can reliably control) rather than the physics.
5. There's how a player might interpret what their teacher is saying. This is subject to their own pedagogical background, biases, and struggles.

Lots of players will argue about what things feel like (#2) thinking they're arguing about what's actually happening.

Even if we get all the physics sorted out, we still don't have a proper signal to make it happen. Say we get the physics right and tell our brain to do what should be happening - since we don't have a good control system to get our body to do the things we think we're telling it to do, the most correct physics ends up fruitless. If the correct steps for playing the trumpet are XYZ and I don't have a signal from my brain to get my body to do XYZ reliably, then my knowledge of the mechanics isn't very helpful.

So we're arguing about what things feel like (the feedback), thinking we're arguing about what's actually happening (the actual process), using this information as the signal to active the process (the control), and finding that things still don't work because we're putting the wrong commands into the signal.

Then we go to a teacher who might repeat the entire process in analyzing us and tries to tell us what we should be doing rather than correcting the signal. We of course misinterpret what the teacher is saying because of our own biases, which doesn't really matter since it wasn't going to work anyway.

All this to say that understanding how the trumpet works can be helpful, but we need to consider its place. Each rung in the system has its place, but only when each place is understood.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
Even if we get all the physics sorted out, we still don't have a proper signal to make it happen.

I agree, and I don't believe a trumpeter has to understand the physics in order to play well. Just like a person can become a very good driver without becoming an expert on automotive engineering.

But the OP asked what's compression and why it's needed to play high notes. I thought (1) Thomas Moore's articles explained it well, and (2) some of the conventional wisdom floating around misses the point, so that's why I shared it.

I have found his explanation helpful for other things, like why it's sometimes difficult to get a note to sound clearly and immediately and what's required to make that happen more reliably. But as you say, this knowledge is useless until I apply it in the practice room to improve my skills in sending the proper signals to the instrument.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the physics are both really interesting and can be useful when dealing with playing problems. The knowledge is good when it's properly applied.

To continue the driver analogy, if we're driving and want to go faster, we step on the gas. That's what makes us go faster from the driver's perspective. There's no button that says open the throttle valve, let air in, etc. There's no button that describes the chemistry of gasoline. All of that information is wrapped up under the gas pedal. And that knowledge and experience isn't what it feels like to step on the gas pedal.

These of discussions tend to be like debating the inner workings of the engine based on the way the engine feels to driver all while looking for the gasoline chemical reaction button in the cab of the vehicle. Understanding the inner workings of trumpet physics is only useful to the player if they also understand the limitations and quirks of our control (mental signals telling our body to act) and feedback (the feeling in the body and the sound of the horn) systems. These debates often appear to happen under the assumption that our control and feedback system talks the same language as a physics discussion. They don't.

If we're all on the same page in what we're each describing, then things are more productive.

This is what's happening -> this is what should be happening -> this is what is feels like for what's happening to happen -> this is what it feels like to do the correct thing -> this is what I'm telling my brain to do -> this is what I should tell my brain to do -> this is what I tell a student to tell his brain to do

These are all different things that talk a different language.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is utter nonsense to pretend that water coming out a nozzle has no force. Said force is relied upon every day to perform all sorts of tasks, including cutting metal!
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mm55
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
It is utter nonsense to pretend that water coming out a nozzle has no force.
So who is uttering such nonsense?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
cheiden wrote:
This reinforces the previous post that indicates that the trumpet generates useful resistance in the lower register (so the player doesn't have to) and that because the trumpet does not generate much useful resistance in the upper register it's up to the player to generate this resistance.

Sort of. In the middle register, feedback from impedance forces the lips to vibrate at certain frequencies. In the upper register, there isn't much impedance, so there isn't much feedback, so the trumpeter gets very little help in getting and keeping the lips vibrating those high pitches. The trumpeter isn't trying to create resistance (impedance), we're just trying to get the lips vibrating at very high pitches, and the horn isn't helping like it does in the middle register.

Thomas Moore wrote:
The difficulty that we all experience in playing very high notes is directly attributable to the lack of feedback to the lips at these high frequencies. That is, no matter how good your trumpet is, it isn't helping you play that high E. When playing notes in the staff, trumpeters rely on the fact that the feedback "slots" the lip vibrations into the correct pitch, leaving the artist to make only minor adjustments with her lips. But when playing above a C6 [high C] there is almost no feedback from the trumpet...

Professor Moore included a chart measuring impedance of a Bb trumpet in his article on impedance. I wish I could reproduce it here, but it's under copyright. Anyway, it shows impedance peaks measured for the frequencies of open notes in the harmonic scale, C4, G4, C5, E5, G5, Bb5, C6, etc. The note with the highest peak impedance is C5, our tuning C. Notes above C6 (high C) have minuscule peaks, and above E6 there's hardly any peak at all.


It would be very useful to chart these impedance peaks of modern horns, compare the results to what Moore did decades back, and see if horns have gotten measurably better. I think they have, because more people are getting farther into the upper register.

It would be great if horns were sold with these graphs, much the way speakers are sold with graphs of their frequency response curves.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you please explain what we need to do with our bodies. This is will make any future explanation more accurate and possibly eliminate confusion. I honestly would like to understand this better.


It is not so much what we do with our bodies, but a problem of the attribution of cause and effect based on erroneous explanations.

Playing is quite instinctive, and we don't all have the knowledge to consciously analyze the technical processes such as fluid dynamics, acoustics, energy balance, etc.

We have instincts about such things and we can have a subconscious model that serves us well.

The problem is that, along the way, players and teachers have "informed" us with "explanations" of cause/effect that are completely erroneous. SOME of these can mislead players to the point of frustration and failure. Some are just alternative (and bogus) technical "explanations" of things that players already do that are part of the process of how they play. (example: tongue arch.)

Some of these discussions are, to some degree, trivial. If arching the tongue helps to ascend, then there should be no need to discuss the "why" in some quasi scientific way to justify it. The "explanation" is usually trivial until it leads a player down a wrong path or stalls his progress.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It would be very useful to chart these impedance peaks of modern horns, compare the results to what Moore did decades back, and see if horns have gotten measurably better. I think they have, because more people are getting farther into the upper register.


John Lynch also did an impedance measurement graph. The measurements may have some limitations. (Like the frequency response of the measuring device itself.)

It seems that the "modern" preferred horns are more open and larger bore, etc. These would have less impedance throughout the horn. But it would be a small degree of difference.

The horns with the greater impedances may not be the one you would prefer on a gig. It is all about preference.


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cbclead
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/1Wco0nNh1aM

Wayne covers many topics in this video, but he addresses resistance and compression specifically. This is one of my favorite "instructional" videos on YouTube.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
It would be very useful to chart these impedance peaks of modern horns, compare the results to what Moore did decades back, and see if horns have gotten measurably better. I think they have, because more people are getting farther into the upper register.

It would be great if horns were sold with these graphs, much the way speakers are sold with graphs of their frequency response curves.

This graph appeared in Moore's article in 2002. He mentioned that the trumpet was a King Legend, which is a modern trumpet, and the mouthpiece was a GR66M. He also wrote that the results would be similar (but not exactly the same) for any quality instrument, at least in terms of the sharp drop off in impedance for higher notes.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have no doubt but that the so called "science" of the faster air advocates is not valid I am still not ruling out the idea that a tongue movement can influence range.

Numerous matters are going on inside the body while a trumpet player ascends into the upper register. Or even when he merely strikes an easy tone in the middle register. And while the concept of restricting the airstream to produce "faster air" is in and of itself a wholly worthless concept the mere fact that he is moving or raising his tongue one way or another can have a substantial effect on the embouchure.

The tongue can and often does bump into that back of the lower lip. That and the tongue may also touch the sides of the upper lip in the area where it resides inside the mouth. It is my position that at least in a minority of persons who have useable upper registers that it is the direct influence of their tongue on the back of the lips/gums inside the mouth that may be helping produce this range increase. Again it is of zero value to produce faster air to increase range. That said?

There are plenty of other factors which the tongue can favorably influence besides the fictional and much flawed "faster air" concept. Ive seen this in my own playing while attempting certain unusual embouchure settings. In fact in my regular chop setting a tongue movement simply can not assist me in increasing what I call "ordinary range" or "OR"

Ordinary range being high C to the D just above.

Yet when I did temporarily switch to a chop setting more on the lines of Superchops? Indeed the contact my tongue made had close to a dramatic effect on range production. But the support from positioning my tongue was only caused due to the tongue's direct pressure on the back inside of my lips. Probably only the pressure put on my lower lip.

Thus I can easily see why these faster air advocates cling to their easily disproved false science. As,

A. They move their tongue to an unusual position inside their mouth as they increase the air pressure inside their body. Voila! Higher notes are assisted. And then,

B. The return their tongue to its original position and boom... No more high notes!

There is an effect from a tongue movement in some brass players. Yet this effect while favorable at influencing range in a few cases is not associated with "faster air". Or the flawed "science" of faster air advocates. And in fact such tongue movements will have zero effect in increasing range in quite a number of trumpet players. Its just that the ones who are helped by the concept have been seduced by the mistaken cause and effect.

Also they become confused and their opinions become skewered due to the fact that whistling actually can employ a raised tongue to whistle higher tones. However the function of whistling is not applicable to brass playing. They are wholly unrelated concepts.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of feel and what some might call "compression," sometimes my tongue feels like it's doing a frustrated tongue stop. By this I mean that my tongue feels like it's moving towards the space between the teeth so as to stop the air and sometime before doing so, it stops moving forward, thereby letting the air to continue to pass through. It doesn't feel like it passes between the teeth and I'm not sure how far forward it actually goes, but it has helped in the past.

I struggled with applying the concept of tongue arch since my brain translates an arched tongue as having a low front, a high middle, and low back. This never did anything productive for me. The concept of moving the tongue forward rather than raising it seemed to help things along and get my body to do what it should - whatever that actually is.
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