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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's my sense that a lot of these arguments go south because people always think about the continuous flow of air and not the oscillating fraction, when if fact it is both at the same time. In electronics that's like paying attention to only the DC component with no regard for the AC component which is a big mistake. The rules for the DC component is pretty straight forward, Ohm's law pretty much spells it out. The AC component is way trickier to describe and predict, and way less intuitive. Laypeople have absolutely no intuition about what happens when you introduce even tiny amounts of inductance and capacitance yet these can have an enormous effect on the behavior of oscillation.
The flow of air in the lower registers is consequential and intuition about how the body and horn effect the flowing air isn't too tough. But even here no one's too concerned about the flow of air, only the propagation of the oscillation which isn't the same thing. In the upper register the flow of air typically reduces to a tiny fraction so the simple model for what affects air flow and what you can expect it to do matters much less. On the other hand small variations in the air column can, and I believe do make disproportionately big changes in the behavior of the oscillation.
I really like the previous post that quoted "We're playing the horn, but the horn is also playing us...".
Of course, I could be wrong. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Russell Iser New Member
Joined: 17 May 2017 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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What is the best way to check compression on a horn you are thinking of buying? |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet compression |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | casivake718 wrote: | Can someone explain to me what is compression and how to do it. I always hear that to play the upper register, you need compression. I don't know what they mean by that. The only thing I know what to do that helps my upper register is wedge breathing. Other than that, I just think, less is more and other mental things like that. I would like to learn about compression, how to do it and how to use it properly. |
Sensing I'm entering a mine-field I began to think of a balloon! Then inflating it just a little, and then just letting the air hiss out. No special sound, not even some horseflapping; now imagine inflating it much and then same procedur: typical horseflapping sound; and again same procedure but this time pincing so as to stretch the "exit". A squeaking sound no doubt!
Then make the analogy of blowing air through your lips. The "exit" pincing corresponding to the aperture! So, the only reason a high tone would be the "shutter" opening?
Just wondering |
Carrying the analogy a bit further: so no air no sound right?! Inflated balloon - does this mean the air is compressed? Probably as the air wants to leave in a hurry. But wait, what's providing the pressure? The elasticity of the "plastic" making up the walls of the balloon? Or is it the air exerting pressures on these "walls"?
And why the difference in sound? Pincing the exit=forming an aperture?
Would there be a squeaking sound but for the kinda lip resembling exit?Probably not. So this "aperture/exit" - its form etc is important?
If I were to hold say an A4 sheet in front of the exit, during 2 different kinds of letting the air out 1) just letting it out no pincing - the impact in the sheet? Probably flapping a whole lot 2 )pincing - probably much less flapping
Why?
Interesting comparison with water hose as this pincing makes the water fly quite a bit longer & exerting bigger impact. Why so?
I am not kidding just wanting to understand the subject. The oscillation thing
Cheiden brings to the discussion? No pincing makes for steady airstream, pincing creating a completely different wave system, much highrr frequency (imagine a sinus wave) so "coming and going" sort of. Or? _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Interesting comparison with water hose as this pincing makes the water fly quite a bit longer & exerting bigger impact. Why so?
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Water hose results are irrelevant to the playing system.
Quote: | I am not kidding just wanting to understand the subject. The oscillation thing Cheiden brings to the discussion? No pincing makes for steady airstream, pincing creating a ompletely different wave system, much highrr frequency (imagine a sinus wave) so "coming and going" sort of. Or? |
Do you mean "sine" wave? Yes, a smaller aperture, and a more "tense" or "firm" one will naturally pulsate at a higher frequency.
But in the case of playing the wave is always "going". Thus requiring an average "outflow" of air. The "DC" air flow that we recognize, that is what Cheiden is referring to. I have also explained this way on TH in the past. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | Interesting comparison with water hose as this pincing makes the water fly quite a bit longer & exerting bigger impact. Why so?
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Water hose results are irrelevant to the playing system.
Quote: | I am not kidding just wanting to understand the subject. The oscillation thing Cheiden brings to the discussion? No pincing makes for steady airstream, pincing creating a ompletely different wave system, much highrr frequency (imagine a sinus wave) so "coming and going" sort of. Or? |
Do you mean "sine" wave? Yes, a smaller aperture, and a more "tense" or "firm" one will naturally pulsate at a higher frequency.
But in the case of playing the wave is always "going". Thus requiring an average "outflow" of air. The "DC" air flow that we recognize, that is what Cheiden is referring to. I have also explained this way on TH in the past. |
Nope: sinus wave( in Sweden Alternating Current typical 60 hZ). Just an example of course and in itself always going. I agree with your statement of pulsating at a higher frequence (as in A 442 hZ). And smaller aperture.
Also the wave created by the aperture in the mouthpiece. Which of course continues in the tubing resultating in a very complex dynamic process, described by prof Moore.
But the OP was wondering about compression so that's why I took the gardenhose analogy comparing that with my balloon analogy. In each case a pressure that propels the flow - however different between hose and balloon;
interesting to discuss why. The media through which the pressure operates water and air. But "pressurized".
With higher notes the flow not that forceful but higher frequency. But what initiates the flow? Has to be a compression somewhere to result in pressure?? Or? By continual flow I understand Cheiden's DC analogy. But continual flow towards the lips/aperture creates the wave system and wave systems should be in some way AC? And, somewhere lurking the Venturi phenomena - yes I know we disagree about that one......
So much for now and back to the drawing board _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Nope: sinus wave( in Sweden Alternating Current typical 60 hZ). |
In English this is referred to as a sine wave, in regard to the waveshape.
Other than that I am not clearly understanding your post. It appears your English is limited. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet compression |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | so no air no sound right?! |
Prof. Moore wrote another article for the ITG Journal in which he described a demonstration he saw at a conference where the presenter used a trombone and a trombone mouthpiece with a hole drilled through the side of the cup. The end of the mouthpiece was covered with a latex membrane so that no air could pass from the mouthpiece into the trombone--the air escaped through the hole in the side of the cup. When the presenter played it, it sounded like a normal trombone, even though there was absolutely no air flowing through the instrument. The vibration from the lips passed through the latex membrane and produced sound in the instrument.
The purpose of this demonstration was to prove to the audience that the sound of a brass instrument doesn't come from air flowing through the instrument, it comes from pressure waves put into the horn by vibrating lips.
With a normal brass instrument setup, a small amount of air does trickle through the instrument because air is used to make the lips vibrate. It's a by-product of the buzzing action. But it's the vibration that causes the sound, not the airflow. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet compression |
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[quote="dstdenis"] Seymor B Fudd wrote: | so no air no sound right?! |
Prof. Moore wrote another article for the ITG Journal in which he described a demonstration he saw at a conference where the presenter used a trombone and a trombone mouthpiece with a hole drilled through the side of the cup. The end of the mouthpiece was covered with a latex membrane so that no air could pass from the mouthpiece into the trombone--the air escaped through the hole in the side of the cup. When the presenter played it, it sounded like a normal trombone, even though there was absolutely no air flowing through the instrument. The vibration from the lips passed through the latex membrane and produced sound in the instrument.
The purpose of this demonstration was to prove to the audience that the sound of a brass instrument doesn't come from air flowing through the instrument, it comes from pressure waves put into the horn by vibrating lips.
With a normal brass instrument setup, a small amount of air does trickle through the instrument because air is used to make the lips vibrate. It's a by-product of the buzzing action. But it's the vibration that causes the sound, not the airflow.[/quote
I agree! No problem at all understanding this. The creation of pressure waves is exactly what I ment.
What causes the vibration? _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | With a normal brass instrument setup, a small amount of air does trickle through the instrument because air is used to make the lips vibrate. It's a by-product of the buzzing action. But it's the vibration that causes the sound, not the airflow. |
So; Do you think there would be sound if you could get the lips to vibrate the same way, but without any air pressure or air flow into the instrument?
The pressurized pulses of air is what gives energy to the sound. And, air flow is absolutely required in this case.
The total air power (energy/time) provided by the player is Pressure x Flow. A fraction of this power transmits as sound (depending on efficiency). If flow were zero, there would be no power, and no sound, regardless of efficiency.
The vibrating lips do facilitate this. But the vibrating lips themselves would produce very little sound, if any, if you could get them to vibrate independent of the existence of air flow.
The average (DC) flow CAN be exhausted from the playing instrument as in the experiment that was mentioned, but the AC portion does transmit through the instrument. This does not negate the requirement of an air flow into the instrument (or, at least the mp cup) by the player. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Do you think there would be sound if you could get the lips to vibrate the same way, but without any air pressure or air flow into the instrument? |
In the experiment, there was air pressure but no air flow into the instrument. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | In the experiment, there was air pressure but no air flow into the instrument. |
There was absolutely air flow into the instrument. The "instrument" as played, begins at the mp cup.
But you evaded the question; If you could somehow get the lips to "wiggle" like they do when playing, but without the pulses of air (with a net flow) into the mp cup, do you think there would be any sound? |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't it the puffs of air going into the instrument that make the sound (at a particular pitch) with the number of puffs per second (440 puffs per second for A 440) being determined by the tension in the lips as determined by the muscles of the embouchure which would, of course, include the tongue?
Can't separate air and lip vibration. They work as a unit and I believe must be practiced as a unit to successfully learn to play the trumpet. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpet compression |
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dstdenis wrote: | With a normal brass instrument setup, a small amount of air does trickle through the instrument because air is used to make the lips vibrate. It's a by-product of the buzzing action. But it's the vibration that causes the sound, not the airflow. |
Perhaps one would do well to remember that it is the airflow (through the lips) that causes the vibration. |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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TrpPro wrote: | Can't separate air and lip vibration. They work as a unit and I believe must be practiced as a unit to successfully learn to play the trumpet. |
YES!!!
So let's all take this as a cue to go become better musicians in the practice room, rather than at the keyboard! _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | TrpPro wrote: | Can't separate air and lip vibration. They work as a unit and I believe must be practiced as a unit to successfully learn to play the trumpet. |
YES!!!
So let's all take this as a cue to go become better musicians in the practice room, rather than at the keyboard! |
So compressed/pressurized air makes the lips vibrate creating a wave - this wave gets the air molecules inside the horn going - in their turn getting feedback from the horn (=impedance); in the lower register helping the player, not so much in the higher. Different horns better or worse at helping, every horns has its unique coloring.
No actual air is transported throughout the horn - as in wave systems at sea, no "mass" of water is transported. What we see is not water moving but the wave system moving.
The very process of getting the vibration under way then should be the main topic. Does the tongue interfere? Higher up more tongue up against the roof of the oral cavity? If so why does this help producing these higher notes?
Have I got it right??
ps water and air behaves differently due to the difference in mass?!(the hose and balloon analogies).
Ps and now for the practice room
ps The MRI of Sara Willis blowing is very instructive with regards to the tongue positions (www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA) _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet compression |
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John Mohan wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | With a normal brass instrument setup, a small amount of air does trickle through the instrument because air is used to make the lips vibrate. It's a by-product of the buzzing action. But it's the vibration that causes the sound, not the airflow. |
Perhaps one would do well to remember that it is the airflow (through the lips) that causes the vibration. |
Yes, that's absolutely true. In the experiment Moore described, the sound stopped when the guy playing the trombone put his finger over the hole in the side of the mouthpiece because the air couldn't flow through his lips and make them vibrate.
But the interesting thing, I think, and the point of the demonstration was to show that none of the player's air was flowing from the mouthpiece into the trombone. Sound was coming out of the bell, but no air from the player's lungs. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:25 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | But you evaded the question; If you could somehow get the lips to "wiggle" like they do when playing, but without the pulses of air (with a net flow) into the mp cup, do you think there would be any sound? |
That's an interesting question, and it turns out Prof. Moore addressed it in his article:
Thomas Moore wrote: | If there were a way to make your lips buzz without blowing air through them, you could play any piece of music you choose without actually putting air through the horn. |
BTW, the article is A Comment On the Importance of Airflow, by Thomas Moore, ITG Journal, Jan 2003, pp 53–54. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | So compressed/pressurized air makes the lips vibrate creating a wave - this wave gets the air molecules inside the horn going - in their turn getting feedback from the horn (=impedance); in the lower register helping the player, not so much in the higher. Different horns better or worse at helping, every horns has its unique coloring.
No actual air is transported throughout the horn - as in wave systems at sea, no "mass" of water is transported. What we see is not water moving but the wave system moving... Have I got it right?? |
Yes, I think so, although there is some air transported through the horn in a normal arrangement, but it's incidental to producing the sound.
Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Ps and now for the practice room |
Absolutely! _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Thomas Moore wrote:
If there were a way to make your lips buzz without blowing air through them, you could play any piece of music you choose without actually putting air through the horn.
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Perhaps, but it would be so soft that it would be barely audible.
Where would the power required for the sound come from? The wiggling lips would provide very little. If any.
Where would the air pressure for the sound pressure wave be supplied from?
If Moore said this he obviously didn't think it through. He should know better. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:50 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | Thomas Moore wrote:
If there were a way to make your lips buzz without blowing air through them, you could play any piece of music you choose without actually putting air through the horn.
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Perhaps, but it would be so soft that it would be barely audible.
Where would the power required for the sound come from? The wiggling lips would provide very little. If any.
Where would the air pressure for the sound pressure wave be supplied from?
If Moore said this he obviously didn't think it through. He should know better. |
Hopefully my thinking is correct: what is required is the initiation of the wave moving the air molecules; this input does not come out of nothing. So a certain minimum threshold must be exceeded. What constitutes this threshold? Should be the sufficient amount of pressurized air to get the vibration going and "forwarded".
On the other hand: imagine stirring a fluid resulting in a swirl; the analogy could be having tiny muscles that could flap the lips. Would that suffice to initiate the oncoming wave? Personally I don't think so. You gotta have a medium, in this case air.
But who am I to know _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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