Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
Hey, guys!
I like to post here periodically, but I read stuff every day and try to get as much practice as when I can (unfortunate that I can't get any more than I do lately... hopefully that changes soon).
But I'm curious about range exercises. When we're doing them - things like triads/arpeggios moving up in half steps - are we aiming for the best SOUND we can make at the LOWEST volume possible? Or is the focus on the QUIETEST sound at which we can get some sort of sound "roughly recognizable" as the pitch?
I bring it up because when I go to make the absolute quietest sound I possible can in the upper register, the tone is just AWFUL. I can get a nice, full sound on those notes when playing them at maybe an mf - ff, but anything less than that sound terrible - there's a slight double-buzz, often not-so-good note support, and usually a rather puny, inconsistent tone.
So what do we want? What kind of practicing is gonna make a better high range - focus on tone quality with the volume being whatever it CAN be to make it sound good? Or focusing on the lowest volume/small quantity of air needed to make the pitch just come out, with the tone quality working itself out through practice?
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
But I'm curious about range exercises.
Have you found a real trumpet teacher to get regular, structured lessons as you've been prompted to do numerous times? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Playing quiet is about focus and less air. You should still have a good but “soft” mp sound. Many players use too much or a incorrect air concept in the upper register. As this is not a face to ace I will not get in deep. Playing softer can help the player understand controlled air and mechanics in the upper register. I describe some of that in this video starting at 4:09 in.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
Robert P wrote:
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
But I'm curious about range exercises.
Have you found a real trumpet teacher to get regular, structured lessons as you've been prompted to do numerous times?
It's easier (which seems to be a primary consideration today) to just ask questions on an internet forum.😐
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
THe double buzz has come up before when The lips had been fatigued or overworked.
Practicing whisper quiet or as faint as you can in the staff will be the aperture size of high notes while, while loud notes is equateable to
the low note aperture feel.
Cat Anderson used to do a g in the staff as quet as can be for 20 minutes or so.
I did that for a while but needed it to blend into the feel of normal playing so I would do that, rest for twenty minutes then, follow it up with Ernest Williams technique preservation exercises like g piannisimo crescendo to mf or ff then back down, Ab same hairpin cres decres then A, , Bb, b, C, b, Bb, etc. to G. Then rest.
Then doing scales at mp tonguing strenthens the embouchure while playing quietly (remember it equates to the high note feel somewhat)
Playing Getchell first studies in the staff at a quiet volume was aomething that helped a bit too. Try it sometime. Get the chops used to playing soft in the staff and then firm up the abs, keep a firmness but similar set and see if you dont get a note higher and more crisp.
Herbert clarke recommended playing soft as do many other greats.
Dont use what I have sais here as a preacription. These are "some" things that I have encountered in my past that I have incorporated at times.
I'm still developing and enjoy seeing other techniques but its good to have a pro / instructor helping you if you can find one. _________________ 🎺
The concept is to develop a pure sound at low volume levels. This improves your response and makes it easier for you to produce pure sounding notes in the upper register with the least amount of effort (or at least with less effort than when you started developing easier response). Low volume levels compel you to focus on your embouchure setting and train you to lock that setting in accurately with greater consistency and less effort. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
Hey, guys!
.. Or focusing on the lowest volume/small quantity of air needed to make the pitch just come out, with the tone quality working itself out through practice?
Never play with bad tone, it sets a bad groove. Don't go as high or increase the volume if the tone is no good. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
.....So what do we want? What kind of practicing is gonna make a better high range - focus on tone quality with the volume being whatever it CAN be to make it sound good? Or focusing on the lowest volume/small quantity of air needed to make the pitch just come out, with the tone quality working itself out through practice?ATB
Interesting question. I do not think it is an either or question. Based on my studying with Carmine Caruso and after years of stupid personal experiments, I believe the answer is neither.
Have you ever noticed how the big time lead players do not manipulate or otherwise adjust very much?
When practicing range stuff by playing short phrases in half steps most humans will hit a wall if there is a conscious effort to keep manipulation and embouchure adjustment to a minimum. Sure you can over arch the tongue, stretch the lips, twist the mouthpiece, press to hard, play too loudly or any number of other things to puke out the next half step.
When humans hit the wall, building up the strength to go on takes time, sometimes months or years. But when it happens you have something you can use.
I think folks can over emphasize playing softly, doing petals and then waiting for the magic to happen on the high notes. That can be very frustrating.
I did not answer the question specifically and this is somewhat of a rant so thanks if you made it this far!!
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet high range... what are we striving for?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
Hey, guys!
I like to post here periodically, but I read stuff every day and try to get as much practice as when I can (unfortunate that I can't get any more than I do lately... hopefully that changes soon).
.......
ATB
Just re-read the post, and it's just a guess here, but the above might be the majority of your problem.
There was sort of a slogan where I went to music college, "Results, not excuses." Hey man, I know nothing of your situation, but practicing "as when I can"? I occasionally have a student tell me he's "too busy" to practice, I don't accept that. We all have our priorities, we also all have 24 hours each day, "I don't have time" is usually code for "I don't MAKE the time."
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
My two cents ... practicing very softly right on up into the higher register FORCES you to learn control. If you pay attention to your chops and what they are doing while sustaining any long note you can also learn to develop them.
Concentrate on your chops as you ascend softly etc.
I play exercises out of The Bill Adam Book up to a high D trying to play ppp. It is a work out !!
Hermie Shear once told me in 1977 when I asked him about building range at a Woody Herman Concert ... "play the Schlossberg Book very softly." _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:11 am Post subject:
Everything the OP asked about has its place, the question is how to apply it. Super quiet with good tone makes no sense to attempt on the highest note you can produce;. If you can do that musically up to 3 half-steps below, that's quite a workout.
Playing as loud as you need to to get your best sound right to the top of your range has its place, but you probably need to be sparing with that approach.
Playing so soft you sound terrible is one of the better ways to experiment with creating pitches higher than you've been able to. This also tends to make it easier for me to employ good mechanics, because I don't expect it to sound good anyway so there's no performance pressure and thus no temptation to force it.
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