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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:40 am Post subject: the pencil in mouth thing?! |
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I have been very sceptical about this "pencil in the mouth" thing. Always thought that "grab your horn/donīt forget to breath/and put the mouthpiece/onto your lips/yeah" and that should be it.
But reading many posts here, amongst them Lionelīs I decided to test, found I could hold a pencil, no, two pencils some minutes. Since then occasionally. But, the other day, unable to use my horn I found a "color-pen", the kind you use on a whiteboard, about 11 mm in diameter and "lipped" it a whole day. Not very long each time, but frequently. Carefully balancing on and off periods so as to avoid fatigue, lactid acid. I have been doing this some time now, but not on that scale until yesterday.
Came home and put my cornet to my lips, doing the Roll Ins as prescribed in the BE method. And what happened? To my amazement a high E popped out Not only that, my lips suddenly felt stronger, no leaking in left corner which I sometimes get becoming tired. After diligently practicing my BE routine I was even able to play some lead charts previously too high for me. This on my cornet mpc!
Today same procedure.
Personally I think that the BE method has isometric ingredients and that this in combination with this pencil-lipping might be extra strengthening, at least in combination with my lips. Or???
Thoughts on this welcome!
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Naturally Seymor my ego always feels obliged to respond to anyone who agrees with me. Or even just tries my advice. So a few comments as well as a mild caution to follow. Apologies in advance for the length of this "epic" post.
For the naysayers first: those people who do not find the pencil exercise helpful and yet still have fine upper registers and endurance? Great. But guess what? This topic does not apply to you. Some segment of the trumpet playing populace will always succeed with a minimum of analysis. Maynard had a fat high G age twelve. Bergeron a double C his first week on the horn. Severinsen's first practice piece was the Carnival of Venice. He nailed it too! And Jack Nicklaus hit an 80 on his very first 18 hole game.
So? Take what you need and leave the rest.
Seymor,
Pleases me greatly to see you prosper. Having read your posts and messages in the past it seems obvious that you've got some impressive chops. The thing is with the development of muscle strength through isometrics inc pencil exercise is to remember three vital matters.
1. Do not overdo these exercises. Our facial muscles do not give us many warning signs of fatigue. Thus we generally find that we've over done it when our tone starts to suck. Either that or we hear unwanted rattles, air in the sound (hiss) or notes in the middle register which speak poorly. Dont respond immediately. All classic signs of over-trained chops. I would bet that most good high note players have spent at least a few years in a near constant state of over-trained chops. They can even play beautifully. On the chart "Ole" off "Maynard "61" album you can actually hear Maynard produce dual tones on his double C, end of first cadenza. While he plays the hell out of the double C the high C an octave below is clearly audible at the same time. This is not a trick recording. He's just in a state of mild fatigue for him. As he's working at or near his limits too.
Whereas when I'm a little over-trained? I'll hear dual tones on my high C to G above. Trombonists typically blow dual tones on their tuning note B flat. Top line bass clef and it sounds awful. While some teachers ball them out for "not practicing enough"?
Their answer is rest and time off the horn. To clear up the swollen lips. Heal the fatigue. In time their embouchure will reach the next higher plateau.if they give themselves lots of rest that is. And the dual or "wolf" tones will go away. So watch out for over-training. Isometrics are not a warm up. Best to do these exercises at the end of a session. And until you're well aware of your body's reaction to them? Consider only doing them the day before you have no playing engagements planned.
2. Remember what I called the "segregation of muscle use" Seymor?. In a nutshell this means that just adding strength to your chops is not enough. Because sheer brute strength without the applied know how of how to use your newly strengthened chops is without value.
Instead think of that area of yolur upper lip which fits inside the inner rim of the mouthpiece. Its about the size of the top half of a dime. Okay now no matter how much you may compress the facial muscles outsde of the "dime"??
Never flex any muscles at all inside the "dime". Not even on your highest note. Heck especially not on your highest note. Have you ever heard a good lead player say that "I just relax my lips above high C"??
He's right but what he really means is that he is relaxing only the inside of his upper lip. Well?
Well except in the case perhaps of the powerful high player who utilizes dry lips. It is my theory and a provable one at that I think that the dry lip screech player (which is a lot and maybe most of them) is getting the same support which we who need stronger chops derive from these prescribed isometrics. Life isnt fair. High notes are much easier for some. For the rest of us? Isometrics could be our great equalizer.
3. Although you certainly do not want to overdo these exercises Seymor please continue doing them. Patiently. Ever gradually increasing both the length of time you can hold the pencils (plural! As one may not be enough to really get it) and the weight/length of the pencils. Keep doing these until you achieve as much range and endurance as desired. Make this a two year plan followed up with perpetual maintenance.
Before I started doing these more challenging double pencil routines I could not play an A above high C withut too much arm pressure. Pressure/mouthpiece "weight" that is that was detrimental to both the day's session but to my weekly trend as well. Playing above High G or even just too many notes above high D needed too much arm pressure.
I was still a decent lead player however and able to ace all those TOP cover band charts. I never once missed a note in "Still A Young Man". Nor the high F# in "What Is Hip". But inside I was coming apart. Barely finishing some three set dance gigs.
But now? After increasing my endurance on the dual pencil routine? I can hit maybe fifty high A's or high B flats in one practice session. Best of all my near pressure-less range is close to high G most of the day or night now. That and my pressure-less range can hit notes at good volume. Without jamming can pretty much "sit" on high F and such.
And my top end has increased. Double C or the B natural just below used to be my last possible note with extreme arm pressure. Today? Regularly popping decent E's and F's above double C. Granted I'm jamming here but these be real notes. Not squeaks or statics. Real ringing notes. I never was one of those guys who could squeak to high heaven. Like Roy Stevens and Roy Roman.
These isometrics + some applied research and practice of physical laws pertaining to the production of high notes has finally put my chops together. I was always a decent high note guy. But always had serious imitations.
To my mind this has been a gift. Because had I been born with good high notes? Like those cats who typically start blasting nice double C's at only age twelve? Then I believe my knowledge of the physics would be far more limited. I would probably have been one of those, "Just use the air" type of guys.
Turning a weakness into a strength. There ya have it Seymor. Great work dude!! Please keep us all posted on your continued progress.
o
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Lionel wrote: | Naturally Seymor my ego always feels obliged to respond to anyone who agrees with me. Or even just tries my advice. So a few comments as well as a mild caution to follow. Apologies in advance for the length of this "epic" post.
For the naysayers first: those people who do not find the pencil exercise helpful and yet still have fine upper registers and endurance? Great. But guess what? This topic does not apply to you. Some segment of the trumpet playing populace will always succeed with a minimum of analysis. Maynard had a fat high G age twelve. Bergeron a double C his first week on the horn. Severinsen's first practice piece was the Carnival of Venice. He nailed it too! And Jack Nicklaus hit an 80 on his very first 18 hole game.
So? Take what you need and leave the rest.
Seymor,
Pleases me greatly to see you prosper. Having read your posts and messages in the past it seems obvious that you've got some impressive chops. The thing is with the development of muscle strength through isometrics inc pencil exercise is to remember three vital matters.
1. Do not overdo these exercises. Our facial muscles do not give us many warning signs of fatigue. Thus we generally find that we've over done it when our tone starts to suck. Either that or we hear unwanted rattles, air in the sound (hiss) or notes in the middle register which speak poorly. Dont respond immediately. All classic signs of over-trained chops. I would bet that most good high note players have spent at least a few years in a near constant state of over-trained chops. They can even play beautifully. On the chart "Ole" off "Maynard "61" album you can actually hear Maynard produce dual tones on his double C, end of first cadenza. While he plays the hell out of the double C the high C an octave below is clearly audible at the same time. This is not a trick recording. He's just in a state of mild fatigue for him. As he's working at or near his limits too.
Whereas when I'm a little over-trained? I'll hear dual tones on my high C to G above. Trombonists typically blow dual tones on their tuning note B flat. Top line bass clef and it sounds awful. While some teachers ball them out for "not practicing enough"?
Their answer is rest and time off the horn. To clear up the swollen lips. Heal the fatigue. In time their embouchure will reach the next higher plateau.if they give themselves lots of rest that is. And the dual or "wolf" tones will go away. So watch out for over-training. Isometrics are not a warm up. Best to do these exercises at the end of a session. And until you're well aware of your body's reaction to them? Consider only doing them the day before you have no playing engagements planned.
2. Remember what I called the "segregation of muscle use" Seymor?. In a nutshell this means that just adding strength to your chops is not enough. Because sheer brute strength without the applied know how of how to use your newly strengthened chops is without value.
Instead think of that area of yolur upper lip which fits inside the inner rim of the mouthpiece. Its about the size of the top half of a dime. Okay now no matter how much you may compress the facial muscles outsde of the "dime"??
Never flex any muscles at all inside the "dime". Not even on your highest note. Heck especially not on your highest note. Have you ever heard a good lead player say that "I just relax my lips above high C"??
He's right but what he really means is that he is relaxing only the inside of his upper lip. Well?
Well except in the case perhaps of the powerful high player who utilizes dry lips. It is my theory and a provable one at that I think that the dry lip screech player (which is a lot and maybe most of them) is getting the same support which we who need stronger chops derive from these prescribed isometrics. Life isnt fair. High notes are much easier for some. For the rest of us? Isometrics could be our great equalizer.
3. Although you certainly do not want to overdo these exercises Seymor please continue doing them. Patiently. Ever gradually increasing both the length of time you can hold the pencils (plural! As one may not be enough to really get it) and the weight/length of the pencils. Keep doing these until you achieve as much range and endurance as desired. Make this a two year plan followed up with perpetual maintenance.
Before I started doing these more challenging double pencil routines I could not play an A above high C withut too much arm pressure. Pressure/mouthpiece "weight" that is that was detrimental to both the day's session but to my weekly trend as well. Playing above High G or even just too many notes above high D needed too much arm pressure.
I was still a decent lead player however and able to ace all those TOP cover band charts. I never once missed a note in "Still A Young Man". Nor the high F# in "What Is Hip". But inside I was coming apart. Barely finishing some three set dance gigs.
But now? After increasing my endurance on the dual pencil routine? I can hit maybe fifty high A's or high B flats in one practice session. Best of all my near pressure-less range is close to high G most of the day or night now. That and my pressure-less range can hit notes at good volume. Without jamming can pretty much "sit" on high F and such.
And my top end has increased. Double C or the B natural just below used to be my last possible note with extreme arm pressure. Today? Regularly popping decent E's and F's above double C. Granted I'm jamming here but these be real notes. Not squeaks or statics. Real ringing notes. I never was one of those guys who could squeak to high heaven. Like Roy Stevens and Roy Roman.
These isometrics + some applied research and practice of physical laws pertaining to the production of high notes has finally put my chops together. I was always a decent high note guy. But always had serious imitations.
To my mind this has been a gift. Because had I been born with good high notes? Like those cats who typically start blasting nice double C's at only age twelve? Then I believe my knowledge of the physics would be far more limited. I would probably have been one of those, "Just use the air" type of guys.
Turning a weakness into a strength. There ya have it Seymor. Great work dude!! Please keep us all posted on your continued progress.
o |
A truly epic post, no doubt😏. However, always sensing your good will I've been able to elutriate two points:
1) do not overdo
2)that part of the upper lip "caressing" the rim should at all times be flappable!
The BE method has made me acutely aware of the state of my chops - so hopefully I've become inoculated against destructive wear.
Embarking on this train of thought, flappable part of upper lip, has made me think of this being the essential task - cultivating the aperture - so many theories for the cultivation of this circumscribed area!The areas adjacent to the aperture then have to be developed so as to support. Of course including bottom lip. Not excactly rocket science - rather "goes without saying".
Must acknowledge that amongst all the different schools I've been testing the BE method seems the most "right on the spot".
Guess many of you will disagree but it would be nice to read your views!
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:41 am; edited 3 times in total |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:36 am Post subject: |
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If done correctly and diligently your results are typical because the pencil exercise teaches lip to lip compression which is one of the important elements of developing range.
In terms of range development I experienced instant results from doing the pencil exercise. I credit the publications of Clint "Pops" McLaughlin for introducing me to the concept.
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ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Hey Lionel, don't you know the story about MF's chops and his mouthpiece?
| Quote: | Chris Labarbera:
Quote:
When I was a kid I played in a rehersal band in North Miami with the man who made Maynard's first 'V' cup mouthpiece.
His name was John Di Staldo and by the time I met him he was in pretty bad health suffering from emphysema. Every time he would take a breath your could hear him across the room, but even in his poor condition he was still a very strong lead player!
He told me that back in Canada he had a lathe in his basement where he would fool around making mouthpieces. One day Maynard's parent's came to him and asked him if he would make something for their son. He said he took a Rudy Muck 13C and cut down the rim and made it real flat, then rounded the inside and outside edges. When he was done with the rim he said he tried to make the cup like a " baby french horn cup "
Maynard was already playing on a 7C when John gave him the mouthpiece, he said Maynard had no real range at all at that point. He told me from then on every time he heard Maynard on the new mouthpiece that he sounded stronger and stronger.He said within a few months on that new mouthpiece that Maynard sounded just like he did when he was with Kenton.
My thoughts on this are that the unusual style mouthpiece and Maynard where meant for each other and came together at the right time and the right place. If you think about it most trumpet players ( myself included) are always changing rim shapes, inner diameters, cup depths ect. but for over fifty years Maynard had never deviated from John Di Staldo's original design. ( only in the last ten years or so with Monette, and from what I've heard he sounded way better on John's original design)
Maynard even says in his book that his first real mouthpiece was a Rudy Muck. And I remember going to see Maynard in the 1970's and getting backstage a few times and John Di Staldo was always back there hanging with Maynard.
I truly believe ( as well as many other trumpet players, many of them M.F alumni ) that had Maynard not found that mouthpiece at such a young age things might not have turned out the same.
For those of you who would say that its the man and not the mouthpiece, consider this; He has played it his entire career ( since he was around 15 ) Back then in the late 1930's and early 40's there was nothing available in a stock mouthpiece any where near that. If John hadn't custom made it for him he would have never gotten it. Dennis Noday told me that Maynard wouldn't even TRY another mouthpiece, not even for laughs. I have in my possession the English made mouthpiece that Maynard recorded the 1970 version of "Macarthur Park" on (it was a gift from Roger Ingram) I have also seen and played the original Callichio mouthpiece that Maynard used on Kenton's band ( also Rodger's) as well as the Giardinelli, the Jet-Tone and the Holton. They are all basically the same..... narrow shallow 'V' cup and flat rim with the inner and outer edges rounded off.
Chris |
| Quote: | Jacques Gilbert
Quote:
check out another post from rec.trumpet by Jacques Gilbert:
""I heard another story about Maynard's first.mouthpiece. It was recounted to
me by Maurice Twigg. Maurice was a well known brass repairman in Montreal
during the 40's up until the 80's.. Maurice passed away some years ago and
left his business to his two sons who are now operating it on Saint-Hubert
street in the eastern part of Montreal. He told me that, when he was still
in his early teens, Maynard was taking trumpet lessons at Peate's Musical
Supply in downtown Montreal with his friend Johnny Distaulo. Johnny made the
trumpet scene in Montreal in the 50's as lead trumpet in numerous TV shows
on CBC and Radio Canada. At the time Johnny Distaulo used to fool around
with mp's using hand drills and sandpaper trying to come up with the magic
highnote mp (the one that we all have looked for at one time or another in
our life). Maurice said that one day after having tried everything he could
with one particular mp redesign he gave it to young Maynard who started
using it. According to Maurice Twigg the original MF Jet-Tone mp, whose cup
was flared out like the inside of a spittoon, was derived from this Distaulo
mp. Coming from Maurice Twigg who knew and worked for most of the
professional trumpet players in Montreal for over 40 years I think there are
many elements of truth in this story which I can't confirm unfortunately. JG" |
| Quote: |
Roger Ingram:
Quote:
The previous posts (and subsequent re-posts) regarding Maynard and his "discovery" of the basic mouthpiece design he used during his career are, for the most part, all true.
During the times I toured with Maynard and his band, on two different occasions, Maynard gave me one of his old mouthpieces. He did so because he knew that I am able to play that mouthpiece design. Because I earn a great deal of my income as a "commercial" player, I use different mouthpieces depending upon the type of work I do. This is common among commercial trumpet players. For instance, Wayne Bergeron and Lew Soloff both use many mouthpieces, depending on the type and/or style of work they do. Every successful commercial trumpet player I have been associated with uses the right tool for the job, ie, "you don't want to drive railroad spikes with a tack hammer."
I have 5 different mouthpieces I use regularly. I settled on these 5 different pieces around 18 years ago. I know each one like the back of my hand. Before I settled on these pieces, I experimented with literally hundreds of others. I have a huge box of these "experiments" in my basement. From time to time, when one of my students is on a quest for the right mouthpiece, I let him or her go through that box during one of our lessons. If they find something they like, I just give it to them. I'd rather have someone play it than have it just collecting dust.
Of my 5 regular mouthpieces, there are 2 that I use for lead playing and upper register work. Generally, when I'm playing lead trumpet on a big band, I use the Marcinkiewicz Roger Ingram signature model mouthpiece (model E12.4) with a 30 drill. Then, there is my "v-cup" mouthpiece that I use when I am asked to do specific work only in the upper register. This mouthpiece is based off the original MF-1 that Robert Giardinelli made for Maynard. Jack Onque (who was working for Giardinelli at the time) was the machinist who worked with Maynard on this project. This would be around 1961-62. I have used this style of mouthpiece on many recordings, including the "Blue Light, Red Light" album I did with Harry Connick, Jr.
While on Maynard's band, during a rehearsal when we were preparing for a new tour, I had a Schilke version of Maynard's mouthpiece in my case. This particular Schilke had a 22 drill, which was considerably smaller than the drill Maynard was then using. The 22 drill did not work for me, thus it was just laying around in my case. I handed the mouthpiece to Maynard and said, "here boss, I have one of your mouthpieces and the drill is too big for me." Maynard just sort of laughed, and said, "thank you." On the next tune at the rehearsal, he put it in his horn and tried it. He sounded beautiful on it and smiled. When that portion of the rehearsal was over, he put it in his pocket. For the first week or so of the tour, he used that mouthpiece, and it was apparent to me and everyone else on the band that this mouthpiece was really working great for him. Even though the 22 drill was too big for me, it was smaller than the one Maynard had previously gotten used to. Eventually however, another mouthpiece manufacturer got hold of Maynard, and got him back on his huge drill again. In my opinion, he should've stuck to the 22.
Anyway, this rehearsal took place at the Ohai Women's Club, just a mile or so from Maynard's house. When we broke for lunch, after the morning portion of the rehearsal, Maynard went home, and the rest of us grabbed what we could to eat. When we all came back for the afternoon portion of the rehearsal, I went back to my seat and noticed an old mouthpiece had been placed into my trumpet. As I started to look at it, Maynard came up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder. He said, "and-uh, you gave me a gift, so here's one from me. I took it out of my mouthpiece drawer while I was at home. You're one of the very few players besides me that can play a mouthpiece this tight." Maynard was always very good about reciprocating gifts. He was a class act. He went on to say, "this is the mouthpiece Dominick Callichio cut out for me in L.A., and I used it on everything from about 1956 until the MF-1 was made. That Callichio mouthpiece was the model the MF-1 was designed from." I still have this mouthpiece. At one point, I considered selling it, and almost did, but at the last minute decided not to. I'm glad I held on to it.
The other mouthpiece Maynard gave me was the English made F.B.L. mouthpiece. When he handed this one to me, he told me that he used this mouthpiece for many of the recordings he made with his English band in the early 70s. This is the mouthpiece I gave to Chris LaBarbra (aka Johnson Long) as a gift.
Here is one interesting story I can add to the previous posts. During a conversation I had with Maynard one night on the bus, he told me that when he was a kid, he used to get the keys to the high school band instrument room from his parents (who were music teachers there) and go in on the weekends. As Maynard was very interested in ALL the various brass instruments, (and saxophones too) he would "mess around" with valve and slide trombone, baritone horn, euphonium, french horn, etc. This is when Maynard learned how to play so many different instruments; check out the cover to "Boy with Lots of Brass."
During the same conversation, I asked Maynard how he would describe his embouchure. He told me that basically it was just an old french horn embouchure. He used the term "einsetzen." Translated from German, this means "set in." He told me that during his experimentation with the french horn, he started to really "enjoy" the french horn style mouthpiece. Yes, the mouthpiece design that he used during his career was basically a "baby french horn" mouthpiece, fitted for a trumpet.
Maynard was born in 1928. All of this experimentation occurred when he was around 10-12 years old. Obviously, this would be around 1939-1941. In those years, there wasn't the great choice of mouthpieces available to a trumpet player as there is today. Even though this is the first I've heard of Johnny Distaulo, it is quite possible that this is a true story. However, Maynard DID tell me that when he was a kid, he used to get hold of Rudy Muck mouthpieces and in his words, "spend hours grinding the rim down on the sidewalk in front of my parents house to bring the cup down to the V portion at the bottom of the cup" (that only Rudy Muck mouthpieces possessed during those days.) After he would get to the V portion, Maynard told me he would use 5 or 6 different grades of sandpaper to smooth off the rim making it, in his words, "as smooth as a baby's bottom." If you think about it, this is why Maynard got used to such a narrow diameter. When you take down the sides of a funnel shaped object, and you get closer to the bottom, the diameter decreases. This explains many things. Perhaps Maynard's parents DID have Distaulo custom-make a mouthpiece for Maynard. If so, most likely, they were getting tired of all the brass shavings on their front sidewalk. |
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I've found doing the pencil exercise exactly the way Pops describes it in his book 'Chops Builder' really works well. Since studying Lynn Nicholson's method and Pops' tensionless playing ideas, I approach the horn differently now than I used to. I no longer think in terms of building as much 'chop strength' as possible. For me, nowadays, it's more about muscle memory/sweet spot/efficiency/relaxation. So, when I do exercises like the pencil and the PETE, it is with a different mentality and goal. Check this recent thread as well about how I now use the Warburton PETE:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144153
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9014
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting info, Lex. From your descriptions, it seems that the inner shape of Maynard's mouthpiece is similar to Miles' Gustadt. Any thoughts?
(Chris LaBarbra aka Johnson Long) LOL
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Well both Miles, Clark, and MF played straight V cups.. But the rim on the Heim's I've played are all thinner and with a sharp bite. The Clark Terry rim is too flat, too a big a diameter, and too sharp a bite for me. I just recently got an awesome jazz mouthpiece. It's Derek Saidak's take on the MF FBL TM.. Medium deep straight V cup with MF's great rim. This, to me, is what I was looking for with Miles and Clark's mouthpiece...that comfy rim with the deeper straight V cup. Beautiful, dark small group jazz sound.
Chris LaBarbara's legal name used to actually be Johnson Long. He actually had it legally changed because of all the times he had to sign his name 'last name first' on various forms and all the jokes he had to endure.  
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9014
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Lex.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | If done correctly and diligently your results are typical because the pencil exercise teaches lip to lip compression which is one of the important elements of developing range.
In terms of range development I experienced instant results from doing the pencil exercise. I credit the publications of Clint "Pops" McLaughlin for introducing me to the concept. |
Remarkable this is. Entering the pencil in the mouth business on a more regular basis (carefully avoiding overdoing it) I have a new feeling in my lips; as if the tendency to slip apart is subdued, more strength in the "pylones" carrying the aperture.
The following discussion about v-cup mpc:s seems to to be a mysterious but from my perspective perfect coincidence since I'm about to order some V-cup Storks after the summer.....that a post from me gathers memories of Maynard however must be kinda sacriledge.  ..... 
ps even more weird: suddenly remembered I owned, beginning 70:ties, what was called a Maynard Ferguson mouthpiece; the one looking like a buddhistic pagoda if placed upside down, steps/terrace but I couldn't produce much below C in staff, mostly squeaks above; at the time Bach 1 1/4 was my all round piece incl lead (=Strong Eb in concert, squeaks up to G as end tone).
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
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Trumpets:
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Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:52 am Post subject: |
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To get the most out of the pencil and other isometric exercises designed to strengthen the embouchure? It helps to understand the basic function of both the lips and related facial muscles.
When I see words like,
"Increase lip compression",
I can already tell that the conversation is starting to go off track. While certain muscles do need to be flexed and that this flexation may at times produce some "compression"? If the vibrating portion becomes flexed at any point on the upper lip which rests inside the mouthpiece?
At that point any sound being produced in the upper register will probably cut out.
You simply can not flex the upper lip where it rests inside the mouthpiece and continue ascending into the upper register.
Some embouchure musces relax.
Others contract.
Knowing which group does which of these can be crucial. Because strength for the sake of strength is near useless
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