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Convince me that aperture shape control isn't nonsense


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deanoaks
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contact Jim Thompson at the Eastman School of Music if you are genuinely interested in understanding the concept of aperture control. You can find his email and office phone number on the Eastman faculty website. A lot of his method book and pedagogy centers around lip/air balance and aperture control.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd go so far as to say that most trumpet pedagogy is metaphor - finding the best progress for a given player is often about either finding the right metaphors to encourage progress and/or in finding ways for the player to relate those metaphors to their subjective sensations (which the teacher ofcourse can't know).

If a given instruction/metaphor doesn't work for you, either seek understanding (ie: threads like this) or seek alternative ways to look at things to get the results you're after - the teach has value both in term of providing the lenses we think of playing through and in terms of monitoring whether these are getting us the desired results.

In many ways, the very analytical and scientific way we go about life these days is great - but often the hardest thing is relating those facts and analyses to reality, primarily in terms of the GIGO principle (garbage in: garbage out) as players we often don't know precisely what we're doing, only how we feel like we're doing it, which means we don't have the correct data to form our conclusions from, not could we accurately apply them even if we did...
In other words, it's still an art - even if the science is understood (by some), applying it may well be even more complicated...
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
pass the buttered popcorn

Hey kid you got a ticket? Or did you sneak in through the fire exit again?
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Robert P"quoting "RussellDDixon - "pass the buttered popcorn."

Robert P - "Hey kid you got a ticket? Or did you sneak in through the fire exit again?"

Robert at 56 years old ... I LOVE being called a "kid." Thank you. I snuck in as usual and the popcorn is with extra butter.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P-who are you? Old pedagogical wives tale. Let's see your books, let's see your resume let's see it all buddy.

Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my initial post almost put that I thought that your post was rather demanding.

That last statement I made was quite filtered to say the least.

What do you want from all of us? You're not going to get a cookie either way
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mm55
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P issued a sort of a skeptic's challenge. It's really striking how much flack he's getting from people who cannot meet the challenge.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the OP is a trumpet player, which means he comes equipped with his own flak jacket.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
I'd go so far as to say that most trumpet pedagogy is metaphor - finding the best progress for a given player is often about either finding the right metaphors to encourage progress and/or in finding ways for the player to relate those metaphors to their subjective sensations (which the teacher ofcourse can't know).

If a given instruction/metaphor doesn't work for you, either seek understanding (ie: threads like this) or seek alternative ways to look at things to get the results you're after - the teach has value both in term of providing the lenses we think of playing through and in terms of monitoring whether these are getting us the desired results.

In many ways, the very analytical and scientific way we go about life these days is great - but often the hardest thing is relating those facts and analyses to reality, primarily in terms of the GIGO principle (garbage in: garbage out) as players we often don't know precisely what we're doing, only how we feel like we're doing it, which means we don't have the correct data to form our conclusions from, not could we accurately apply them even if we did...
In other words, it's still an art - even if the science is understood (by some), applying it may well be even more complicated...


TL; DR (aka the maybe slightly shorter but more direct) version...

If we limit trumpet pedagogy to only what is scientifically justifiable/true we may lose a lot of tools currently available to us.

This may be a case in point - even if it can't be proven, does thinking about it help some players?
If the answer is yes, it has atleast some value.

The opposite holds, too... Are there sometimes identifiable trends and characteristics which are certainly there (eg: Reinhardt's embouchure types and associated patterns) but which might in many cases be unhelpful to focus on too much?
Absolutely (especially without a teacher)!



It's the way of a lot of threads here recently - everyone is so pent up about their beliefs being the one truly correct explanation that we're missing the functional value of the paths others might take...
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
Robert P-who are you? Old pedagogical wives tale. Let's see your books, let's see your resume let's see it all buddy.

Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home

Translation of your annoyed huffing is - you have nothing to support that it's a valid concept. But it really chaps your hide that anyone would suggest that it isn't.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Shaft wrote:
Robert P-who are you? Old pedagogical wives tale. Let's see your books, let's see your resume let's see it all buddy.

Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home

Translation of your annoyed huffing is - you have nothing to support that it's a valid concept. But it really chaps your hide that anyone would suggest that it isn't.


Does it matter whether it's a valid concept?

Are we scientists or musicians?

If a false belief breeds positive results, could it not be both invalid AND useful?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Does it matter whether it's a valid concept?

Yes.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Are we scientists or musicians?

That's a false dichotomy. Nobody has to make that "either/or" choice. It also implies that factual understanding of what's going on is only relevant to scientists, which is absurd.

Quote:
If a false belief breeds positive results, could it not be both invalid AND useful?

Sure. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home


Agreed.

For example - nobody cares that Maurice Andre didn't believe his tongue level changed whilst ascending (even though it did, and was proven to him) - they just care that he was probably the best classical trumpet player we've been privileged to have.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
For example - nobody cares that Maurice Andre didn't believe his tongue level changed whilst ascending (even though it did, and was proven to him ...)

Some people care. Some people care enough harp on that exact point, repeatedly.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Are we scientists or musicians?

That's a false dichotomy. Nobody has to make that "either/or" choice. It also implies that factual understanding of what's going on is only relevant to scientists, which is absurd.


I wrote that last post in a hurry...

You're right, there's false dichotomy there - I should've said "are we primarily scientists or musicians?".

The point is that yes, we have to be empirical about what we take and what we leave - but what matters most is the proficiency of the player much moreso than their understanding of how they're doing it (or even what they're doing).

Most of us would like to believe that what helps us is the one true way of thinking, but with so many people getting stunning end results with incompatible beliefs it's clear that there are many sets of beliefs that can get the correct end results - and with every player being slightly different, there will sometimes be different "correct" mechanics anyway.


I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that as players it should matter more to us that we play correctly (and how we get there) than it does to understand the science behind how it's working - sometimes it might be helpful to understand, but it might not be necessary
A scientist who's never picked a trumpet up in their life could understand everything perfectly and yet noone would want to listen to them pick a trumpet up and attempt to perform...
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Shaft wrote:
Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home


Agreed.

For example - nobody cares that Maurice Andre didn't believe his tongue level changed whilst ascending (even though it did, and was proven to him) - they just care that he was probably the best classical trumpet player we've been privileged to have.

If students were told to keep their tongue level because MA does and it's a key to success it would be nothing but counterproductive.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No-my hide is not chapped. In fact, I stated that I don't give a darn what he believes because it is not chapped. I made my points and they are what they are. So I'm asking for some points that prove that it is an old wives tale and that everything that I said does not matter.

When I asked about seeing some sort of backing as far as resume or otherwise. Perhaps I should've reworded it.

Show me something that would tell me that everything that I said is total BS.

You convince me
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1jazzyalex wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Does the pitcher think of how far he moves a specific muscle when throwing the ball?


I'm trying to think of mouth cavity shape when reaching high, and it's a "pat your head while rubbing your stomach" problem. Using muscles in an un-accustomed way. The mouth instinctively wants to form a cigar shape while to make a cavity resonant at higher notes requires a shape more like a really worn-down bar of soap. That sort of "fat leaf" shape.

And I don't even want to think about that, but I have to to teach my muscles the right way.


Who cares what actual shape it makes?

Do you know how to whistle? If so, you know how changing the oral cavity changes pitch. It's no different when you play your trumpet.

Tom
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Shaft wrote:
Nobody gives a darn what people believe when they go home


Agreed.

For example - nobody cares that Maurice Andre didn't believe his tongue level changed whilst ascending (even though it did, and was proven to him) - they just care that he was probably the best classical trumpet player we've been privileged to have.

If students were told to keep their tongue level because MA does and it's a key to success it would be nothing but counterproductive.


I'm glad I never heard of any of this tongue level "nonsense" or I never would have learned how to play.

Good thing I knew how to whistle.

Tom
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