Countless trumpet players care, including many here on TH. Those who are interested in understanding how trumpet playing actually works. Obviously, many players don't care, but I'm not sure why some of them get so worked up and offended that others are seeking factual understanding. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Last edited by mm55 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:50 am Post subject:
mm55 wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
Who cares what actual shape it makes?
Countless trumpet players care, including many here on TH. Those who are interesting in understanding how trumpet playing actually works. Obviously, many players don't care, but I'm not sure why some of them get so worked up and offended that others are seeking factual understanding.
Do you know how to whistle? If so, you know how changing the oral cavity changes pitch. It's no different when you play your trumpet.
Not sure what you are getting at. The action may be similar but the cause of a pitch change is not. The oral cavity has very little, if any, direct influence on pitch while playing brass. When whistling the oral size has a dominant influence on the frequency of the whistle tone.
OK-from a pedagogical standpoint I understand not overwhelming people with too much information. Give people what they can handle when they can handle it. I get that.
If somebody tells a kid keep fiddling around until you get it that's cool. But something changed-something did take place.
Can anyone give you the Emperical data that you want? I don't know.
Can anyone quantify this? I don't know, maybe.
I did as much as I could to make my case. I used realistic measurements on some human beings, conceptually described, and skipped going deeper into the nuts and bolts because That was plenty enough in one post.
And apparently I may be the only one that wants to stick my face in the ring for that. But I'm still waiting to be convinced that it is all BS.
Until then-there's no issue. I'll still go back home and practice the way that I do and you'll still go back home and practice the way that you do. And that's all good. _________________ 🎺
But I'm still waiting to be convinced that it is all BS.
Waiting for someone to prove a negative, while offering no actual proof of a positive. That's walking the line very close to BS. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
I honestly am not sure if you are shaping it in terms of round or side to side. I think that we control the air that escapes through the aperture. The amount of air we use can determine what type of reaction that is taking place. I think it is very possible to blow the aperture too open and thus create a situation that is inefficient leading to range and endurance issues. I think air is the key and the way we use it can optimize the reaction of the aperture. Here is a video I offer to provoke thought on the air component.
Re: my question without offering positive Evidence. EXACTLY RIGHT - it works both ways. That's the whole reason I asked. I know i am not getting an equally definitive answer and it's simple to flip a question on the web and start a discussion on this. Who made who?
The Vizzuti interview is very informative. _________________ 🎺
Upon finishing my 1st pint 6 oz Stone Ruination Double IPA I had an epiphany. Robert why not pony up some cash and get a study done? You can save us all from ourselves… well except Russell he will miss the show.
Nope your absolutely right I, nor anyone else can control the size amount or even flow of the spit that leaves our mouth upon the exhale of playing. So why did you suggest that this was pedagogical?
“It matters to the extent of people wasting time on a pedagogical old-wive's tale with no basis in reality”.
I have never heard a teacher talk about controlling the spit! I have had several talk about ways to remove it from the instrument.
Please help me understand your initial question. Are you talking about a way to reduce spit, control it or deal with it once released?
Instead of eating extra buttery popcorn in my easy chair and sipping my Vanilla Coke Zero ... I decided to do some extensive research on the subject and I offer Yamaha Performing Artist Bobby Shew's thoughts to add to Jon's Vizzutti presentation ...
"APERTURE CONTROL
Easily the most misunderstood aspect of brass playing is what is "supposed to be happening" with the lips and embouchure in general when we play. For years we have been told that our lips are supposed to be buzzing at all times when we play any notes. In fact, the lips must vibrate but NOT in the close configurations as when we do lip buzzing. The air, once compressed, must have a pathway to be released in a controlled manner from the body.
The air actually initially aims at the surface of the top lip, hopefully as far forward as sensibly possible. When it moves at a high velocity, it causes the lip to vibrate from the impact of the air hitting it. The air doesn't just go past the lip, it "spins" into an eddy (a kind of whirlpool) which "bounces downward" as it spins out of the eddy and this downward movement activates a vibration on the surface of-the-bottom lip which also then spins into another eddy. These are called vortices (vortex is singular) and they are the basis of a "sympathetic vibration" occurring between the two lips...which IS WHAT PRODUCES SOUND.
The closer you put your lips together, the softer, smaller, thinner, or more "pinched" your sound will be. When you open up the size of the aperture, the first thing you will notice is the freedom of the movement of the air, then the opening up of the sound. Once the aperture is opened, the player must also increase the tension in the ab support to increase the air flow which in turn must fill the larger gap in the aperture opening. This forces the player to USE THEIR AIR which IS the more efficient way to play. All people ever taIk about is AIR but then the confusion hits when they try to explain how it works and what the player is "supposed to be doing". Soft, delicate playing requires that the player close the aperture down as the airflow is also diminished but understand enough to know that when you "shift gears or hats" as a player into a more demanding situation such as playing lead trumpet, the key is to balance the support and air flow with the aperture.
These aperture muscles need to be developed properly as well. The best exercise I know for this is lip buzzing as long as the player doesn't start to confuse the tightly pursed lips necessary in lip buzzing with what is necessary and different when actually playing. Lip buzzing also must not be done in long hard sessions. It is best done conservatively, usually 30 second sessions done around 10 times a day, alot less to NONE on busy playing days."
ENJOY ! _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Aperture control seems to imply that one should directly think about the size and shape of the aperture, which seems like a misguided, backwards way of thinking about playing. Yeah, it's there but it's just one of a number of elements and probably the one you can least directly perceive when you're playing.
When you have a kid playing their first notes and they finally get say a 2nd line G to sound you don't say to them - "okay make sure you make your aperture like that to play a G".
You can feel in a general way mp pressure, muscular tension, your tongue/throat, air pressure and sensations in your torso related to air expulsion, jaw position and there's a sensation/aural feedback loop when you hear the sound which is how you control what comes out of the horn. I don't know about you but I'm conscious of tension and positioning sensations, not the split between the lips per se. You don't actively regulate the aperture by thinking of what size and shape it is, it's a byproduct that takes whatever form is necessary with a given mp at a given pitch, volume and tone quality.
It would be similar to saying to increase your bench press, you need to exercise control over the pressure of your hands against the bar. Yes, how much you lift is a function of the pressure of your hands against the bar but it's the end result of a number of other elements. Personally I have a general sensation of pushing and contraction, probably most conscious of bar positioning than anything since that has a big effect on the mechanical advantage of the lift. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Thank you for your reply it does make things much more clear for me. I never had a teacher talk about aperture control. The only thing that got anywhere close was a statement that if you blow too hard or use too much air you will blow your chops open and get tired quickly. I don’t think this is something that teachers lead with and more of an in the weeds discussion.
I think your, “to increase your bench press, you need to exercise control over the pressure of your hands against the bar” answers your own question. The sum of what we do controls or creates the action of the aperture. So if someone states you need to control the aperture then it is like saying you need to control your hands when you lift.
I think music when I play not mechanics. When I try to describe what I am doing when I play I would be much more accurate if I said “playing music”. I am a trumpet player not an engineer or scientist or doctor nor have I studied anatomy. Each of those folks will think of playing in terms that relate to their field of study. I will take this to the simplest conceptual example I can. When I go to the bathroom I do not think about the mechanics, physics, science or the anatomical things that are taking place. It is simply a natural motion. This is how playing trumpet should be.
If we take this apart piece by piece action by action and try to analyze, describe and judge every little thing that is happening it becomes debilitating. Do you lift this way? You lift and learn better control that lets you lift better, more efficiently and creates better strength that supports better control and lets you increase weight and promotes the continuation of this cycle.
I think that it would be a huge disadvantage to learn or relearn to play as an adult. As a child your goal is to play the music and the mechanics are broad stroke concepts and actions that disappear as soon as we start to play. I am a child, just ask those that know me! I think music and play with my heart not my mind.
When specific questions are asked I do my best to engage as I feel some deeper need to contribute. Unfortunately I may not be able to help. This is a strange way to learn about playing trumpet. Intimate human interaction is the only way I think this really works. Not Skype, the web or reading a book. Getting together and learning to play music is the best approach.
So no we do not control the aperture we control an entire system that includes an aperture. I don’t think about the micro adjustments from note to note I think about the phrase and how to best make that sound good. When playing trumpet you are playing music so concentrate on the music. It is the best I can offer my brother.
I am now going to get just a bit real. I loved playing baseball as a kid, such a great game. I played nearly every position and understood the game very well. At about age 15 I knew I had no future in ball; I was too slow. I could get a jump on a fly ball and knew how to take advantage of a good lead off but the facts were the facts, I was slow. I stopped playing ball and never felt remorse for my decision nor was I angry that I was not bestowed with the talent needed to be a pro. I have enjoyed on occasion playing softball simply for the love of the game. Love the game and you will enjoy playing!
I did not mean to get you out of the easy chair. The way I will look at Bobby’s information is not through the mechanics but what do you have to do musically.
Get a nice sound and maintain this sound in all registers and volumes. The sound you produce will be your guide. Practice doing this and over time what your body needs to do will become second nature. Over simplification? Yup sure is but if we simplify what we are trying to do by putting it in musical terms we can concentrate on the act of playing and not the mechanics. This concept might be one that works the best for some folks.
Thank you for the offering this it is very interesting.
I think your, “to increase your bench press, you need to exercise control over the pressure of your hands against the bar” answers your own question.
It's really an analogy related to why I see focusing on "aperture control" as an active endeavor a misguided concept. My original question per se was whether anyone can demonstrate that it isn't misguided.
Quote:
I think music when I play not mechanics. When I try to describe what I am doing when I play I would be much more accurate if I said “playing music”.
Maybe some people can completely disregard mechanics, I'm not one of them. It's been a long-term process of being acutely conscious of aspects of mechanics because of dysfunctionalities I struggled with that weren't helped at all by "just put it up and blow" advice.
Quote:
If we take this apart piece by piece action by action and try to analyze, describe and judge every little thing that is happening it becomes debilitating.
For me it was essential to being able to function on the instrument beyond a level I struggled at for a long time. Yet, as focused as I am on minutiae of playing, I still find trying to focus on the aperture to be a non-issue.
Quote:
So no we do not control the aperture we control an entire system that includes an aperture.
Exactly. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
So why go through the exercise in futility that is this post. Make your statement and be done. Honestly my brother are you trying to prove/punish those that think that the aperture has a control mechanism that is separate from the system? The bottom line is from the lungs to the bell it is an entire system. It is like a car motor, from intake to exhaust tip, if one component is not correct then the system is not running efficiently.
On behalf of the entire community let me apologize for our well meaning yet at times inaccurate descriptions and advice.
You are dealing with a conceptual based community that are not always describing things using a mechanical based method. They are doing their best to describe the process through intuitive analysis. The primary focus while playing trumpet is and should remain producing music. Sadly there are few posts asking how to properly approach a particular phrase or passage. Few questions about vibrato or appropriate use of dynamics and few questions about how to sing through the horn.
Please ask questions but don’t expect a consensus that agrees on the explanation or that it will be supported with accompanying diagrams graphs charts and images that describe in detail the process and what must happen to properly execute it. Sadly this is not an owners forum with step by step instructions on how to change your brakes. Music/playing trumpet is not the sum of the mechanical process that creates it.
I hope you find the solutions you seek and playing becomes a joy.
So why go through the exercise in futility that is this post.
I don't see it as an exercise in futility. If someone were to introduce info that I wasn't aware of great - so far they've confirmed my conclusion. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
If you simply stated your point/position or hypothesis you would receive information countering it if it were available. This methodology would garner a faster result and be perceived as less antagonistic in nature.
The position of, prove me wrong, is not universally perceived as one of seeking knowledge.
A statement such as all my research and personal experience points to or demonstrates that X. This Is a simple statement and is much more neutral in nature. If someone knows of information that counters this they will certainly present it.
Your approach in this thread can be seen as combative and draws unnecessary conclusions about your motives. If you truly seek to understand then treat the community you are engaging in a way that invites them to engage instead of challenging them to engage. This approach might lead to deeper information offered from those that aren’t interested in the game.
If you simply stated your point/position or hypothesis you would receive information countering it if it were available. This methodology would garner a faster result and be perceived as less antagonistic in nature.
The position of, prove me wrong, is not universally perceived as one of seeking knowledge.
Here's the question I posed:
Anyone have any hard evidence that the vibrating split between the lips can be controlled, that it can be anything other than a given size at a given pitch and volume while actually playing a horn?
I added the modifier/reminder that I was looking for actual evidence, not "because some teacher says so." Saying trumpet instructor Prof. Josef Blowe at the University Of Southern North Dakota at Hoople teaches this to all their students isn't what I'm looking for.
Not sure how you see this as anything other than information seeking. I can't help it if making this inquiry rubs people the wrong way. If someone asked for evidence of something I believed I had clear evidence of I'd talk about the evidence - seems that's the obvious and natural response. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
This is of what I speak
Convince me that aperture shape control isn't nonsense
You were asked for evidence as well; none appeared.
There are no winners here, no information has been proven to be fact and there are no confirmations of the negative or the positive. So your conclusion is the same and no real ground has been covered.
How is your playing coming? Has this helped you or anyone?
Unfortunately my guess is no.
I have learned one thing from this. Next time I see a question framed in a convince me approach I shall simply respond, Why.
Since we can't see what's going on inside our bodies, mouths or mouthpieces all of this discussion is very two dimensional and can neither be proved or disproved. Right?
Looking at chops playing on acrylic and see through mouthpieces on video and in slow motion (ew) I don't think the aperture is the tiny pinhole size opening we discuss. Looks like air escapes through the chops during vibration through out the entire area of both lips inside the mouthpiece.
I think you can control tension and lip to lip compression or stretching of the lips as well as the power of the airstream used all controls how the lips vibrate. By that thinking, I guess you can control shape and size of the vibrating surface/aperture. Right?
Last edited by trumpet.trader on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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