Next time I see a question framed in a convince me approach I shall simply respond, Why.
Again, the natural response is to impart information if one believes they have information to impart. Your personal contribution to this - besides apparently lecturing me on what you perceive as the slant of my question, has been to reinforce my conclusion - that focusing on aperture control per se isn't valid. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:42 am Post subject:
Russell quoted Bobby Shew, and even his comments on this are controversial. His description of the path of our air flow may be enlightening, and does pertain to the vast majority of players including himself (and me).
Some of the best extreme high note players employed a different path for the air, determined by their natural jaw position, teeth and lips may factor in, and I'm not sure what else. Doc Reinhardt discovered this basic difference (plus a lot more) and labeled them broadly "upstream players," while the rest of us play downstream. The main significance of this is we cannot change which type we are, and knowing about it can save us a lot of grief trying to do what does work for someone else.
Another controversial and/or wrong statement in the same quote pertains to what creates the sound. It is easy to demonstrate we don't buzz our lips like normal while we play with our best sound, nice and relaxed. Just warm up, play your best sound, hold still on a long tone and remove the horn while keeping everything else the same, including the way you blow. The sound will stop! Put horn back and the note will start again.
This demonstrates that the horn does much more than merely amplify the sound we create with our body, as it has frequently been disparaged. I have heard it explained as the air 'hitting' some point near the bell flare, starting the standing wave which then travels back through the horn, hits our lips, and starts the vibration in the first place. While I have no way of verifying this claim, it is a concept that immediately improved my playing, chiefly in the area of being more relaxed.
I know one person who got fabulous results working with the concept of controlling the shape of his aperture: it was my second teacher, John Iatesta, who had been my Dad's prize pupil until going off to College to study under the boss at CMU in Pittsburgh. John always had this amazing fat round sound, and when asked, demonstrated shaping his aperture into a huge round hole. Did he actually play like that? Obviously we have no way of knowing. The idea never helped me. Maynard, only nicknamed the boss long after the teacher at CMU, also touted a large aperture as a good thing. I can't dismiss it entirely, but so far it eludes me.
I just quoted Bobby Shew because he actually addresses the aperture. I don't know if he is correct or not. I have never really even thought about it myself. I just practice (have fun) and play.
I was recently told by a well know professional (who can and does play everything) that I have taught myself to play with an "open apeture" and that while this is ok ... "it limits you." (his words) _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:44 am Post subject:
razeontherock wrote:
Another controversial and/or wrong statement in the same quote pertains to what creates the sound. It is easy to demonstrate we don't buzz our lips like normal while we play with our best sound, nice and relaxed. Just warm up, play your best sound, hold still on a long tone and remove the horn while keeping everything else the same, including the way you blow. The sound will stop! Put horn back and the note will start again.
This is not true for me, and maybe many others. When I hold a note at mf and remove mouthpiece from the receiver (being careful to try and maintain the same embouchure setting), the mouthpiece continues buzzing on the pitch being played in the horn. Sometimes below E above the tuning note, the pitch slides up 1/2 step.
Reinserting the buzzing mouthpiece brings the note back to the horn.
When I start a relaxed buzz tone in the mouthpiece of an open fingered pitch on the horn and insert the mouthpiece, the note instantly plays on the horn.
I like my tone, have pretty good endurance and regularly practice scales and chord exercises beyond dbl C.
According to K.O. Johnny Madrid was able to go back-and-forth between downstream and upstream.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
John always had this amazing fat round sound, and when asked, demonstrated shaping his aperture into a huge round hole. Did he actually play like that? Obviously we have no way of knowing.
I've never seen pics/vidoe of lips playing inside the mouthpiece where the aperture looked round - have you?
I'm sure it's what the overall muscle structure felt like to him not what was actually happening with the aperture. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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I've never seen pics/vidoe of lips playing inside the mouthpiece where the aperture looked round - have you?
I'm sure it's what the overall muscle structure felt like to him not what was actually happening with the aperture.
I just bumped into this topic and it reminded me of a post that I read years ago on TPIN that Mark Minasian wrote about a clinic he attended in Las Vegas with Charlie Davis. I provided a link to this in the topic The Flickering Flame!!. When I hear a really great player that has lots of overtone content in their sound, I imagine that the aperture would look just like the flickering flame. The note being played is the fundamental, and then the first harmonic is an octave above that (with a wavelength half as long as the note being played). There's also the second harmonic which is an octave and a half above the note being played) and this is the one that would cause interesting ripples out of sync with the fundamental and octave above. Then when you get to the fourth harmonic, that would be two octaves and a third above the fundamental, and would add additional complexity to the wave pattern. Excellent players get all of this harmonic activity in their sounds, and it makes sense that the aperture would look very random like a dancing flame. _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest
Anyone have any hard evidence that the vibrating split between the lips can be controlled, that it can be anything other than a given size at a given pitch and volume while actually playing a horn?
While I don't have hard evidence, I think that a player with more vibrancy in their sound at a given pitch and volume than another player with less vibrancy (everything else being the same), would have a more complex vibrating surface in the aperture. It would look like the flickering flame. The other player, due to tension, would have less overtone content (damping out the higher overtones), and while the pitch and volume would be the same, the harmonics causing the aperture to vibrate would look different (less complex). Just my thoughts.
The person controlling the aperture, ironically would be the player with the less vibrant sound, and the player letting the sound be their guide would let the aperture do what it wants to do! _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest
Excellent players get all of this harmonic activity in their sounds, and it makes sense that the aperture would look very random like a dancing flame.
You are making the mistake of believing that these harmonics are all discreet vibrations happening at the same time. They aren't. The harmonic content of the sound is due the non-sinusoidal pressure pulses.
The embouchure pulses are producing a repeating pulse that is not a pure sine wave and is really more of a bit of a "saw tooth" shape.
The pulses become even more non-sinusoidal as the loudness of tone increases. Thus the higher harmonics are even more pronounced.
The wave shape is not random at all. It is quite smooth and cyclical. Just not sinusoidal or symmetrical.
The wave shape is not random at all. It is quite smooth and cyclical. Just not sinusoidal or symmetrical.
I agree. Sinusoidal waves are like the first three in this example. The fourth example is non-sinusoidal, and would be exactly what we are talking about. But, the subtle distinction that I'm trying to make is that a video of the aperture itself would look like somewhat random "flame flickering" with all of these higher harmonic sinusoidal waves combining to generate the "non-sinusoidal" wave. While it looks smooth and cyclical in the figure below, I'm guessing that seeing this in a pulsing aperture would be complex and possibly random to an untrained eye. I liked Charlie Davis' comparison to the flame!
We got granite countertops in our kitchen years ago, and there was a very specific name associated with the pattern of the granite which I've long since forgotten. When people used to ask what the granite pattern was called, I just said "Rocky Road Ice Cream" which everyone agreed was a perfect description. I think flickering flame and non-sinusoidal can be one in the same when describing a film of trumpet players aperture, and I would buy "random" as well from a trumpet player. _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest
While it looks smooth and cyclical in the figure below, I'm guessing that seeing this in a pulsing aperture would be complex and possibly random to an untrained eye.
Again. I don't think you understand. You are only showing the first 2 harmonics. A non-sinusoidal pressure pulse (which you would not be able to see anyway) consist of an infinite series of harmonics, some high harmonics would even be inaudible. The sound source need not "contain" these as discrete and individual vibrations. ( I know you want to believe that, you REALLY do.)
The sound source only need be non-sinusoidal to contain harmonics. And then, there are FAR more than just a few.
This also may not be something you can SEE in the lip cycle. Besides, the lips don't make the sound,. The air pulses do. Which are much more difficult to see or measure. And these cant be "seen" in the lip vibration.
Now this is discourse. I like it. That's why I jumped in on this topic.
The flickering flame concept and the information on waves is both intriguing and helps the mind grow.
This is the beauty of a public forum and free speech.
Even when Ideas compete. This is why the passionate enjoy discussions in their topics of interest.
Thank you for jumping in and reviving an interesting conversation.
*someone mentioned that this will be what makes someone famous or something similar a few comments back. I'm not sure if any nobel prizes for science and arts will be issued for a trumpet oriented study or discussion but the energy level of that statement was funny to see! _________________ 🎺
After reading the bulk of messages regarding this topic, I want to offer my thoughts in 2 short posts.
I'm not one that "believes" a person can actively control the aperture for anything else besides it reacting to the mental commands to change pitch, volume or the fundamental color.
Aperture meaning the fundamental shape of the vibrating tissue. However, I have to ask a layered question.
Are we speaking to control of the aperture during a sustained sound?
Are we speaking to control of the aperture during emission, tapers, and releases?
I would offer the following observations.
In some contemporary pieces, we must utilize the "control of the aperture" by sounding SPLIT TONES, or engaging a secondary embouchure within the cup of the mouthpiece. This is accomplished by bringing the lips together to the point where you hear two pithces souding simulataneously.
Here is a video entitled "Lip Multiphonics," which illustrate the sound as well as a wave pattern, to give you an idea of perhaps what could be called "control of the aperture."
So, in this case, I could argue YES you can control the aperture as means of executing this technique. _________________ Daniel J. Flores
Trumpet Artist
www.dflorestrumpet.com
What I will say is that that after observing my own vibrating surface on the LIPCAM, I've been able to discover a couple of things. TIMING, being the key "control" of the aperture at the point of emission. I don't believe it is a point of controversy to suggest starting the sound in the center of the pitch is one of the most important factors to successfully negotiating any passage.
The video below is a demonstration of the LIPCAM, and how you may observe the physical action of sound production at the mouthpiece.
From this video, I would offer that "control" COULD be considered the active decision to emit, to the moment the sound stops. For example, the camera has helped people coming to me with hitches in their production, and as a result of working with them, we found a few points of timing problems. When the player became aware of the issue, and could see it clearly, which I would consider a positive stimulus, the player then altered the timing of the emission or action (articulation), and the skill improved.
Could this be considered active control of the aperture? Perhaps, but I think the question itself is a more layered.
That is my two cents for now.
Best and the science is REALLY cool from the reading!
I would like to learn more about RESISTANCE and airflow inside tubing, and would appreciate any reading material suggestions. _________________ Daniel J. Flores
Trumpet Artist
www.dflorestrumpet.com
Could this be considered active control of the aperture?
What I was referring to is the notion that it's possible to alter the size/shape of the aperture on a given note at a given volume, timbre with a given mouthpiece. I.e. the notion of playing with a smaller/larger - somehow otherwise shaped aperture. I believe this notion to be grounded in myth. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:39 am Post subject:
If you constrain your premise tightly enough then you can prove it. Sort of like proving 1 + 1 = 2; true but not terribly useful. In general the aperture changes in response to changes in all of those variables.
IMO - Don
p.s. 1 + 1 = 3 for very large values of 1. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:00 am Post subject:
TrumpetDan79 wrote:
The video below is a demonstration of the LIPCAM, and how you may observe the physical action of sound production at the mouthpiece.
Cool video. I haven't seen that before; thanks for posting. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
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