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improver
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 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: Differences Bach 3 versus 3b mouthpiece? opinions? |
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| Its interesting that Bach makes a 3 and a 3b which seem to be very close. Does anyone have opinions on what the playing differences would be? |
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jaysonr
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Straight 3 will have a more bowl-shaped cup and comes standard with the Bach #10 backbore. The 3B will have a more v-shaped cup and will come standard with the Bach #7 backbore. Overall, the 3 has more cup volume, but will likely have a bit more resistance than a 3B. Both would produce sounds on the "darker" end of the spectrum, but the B cup would likely light up a bit more when pushed, and will have a classic, symphonic sound. The 3 will be a "big" sound.
As always, it's all subjective, but hopefully this will help a little.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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In addition to the deeper cup by design, all the B-cup backbores are #7 which is more open than the C-cup standard #10. Expect this piece to sound bigger and deeper. This is considered a more symphonic configuration. Also, I believe that the rim is not exactly identical to that of the 3 or the 3C.
Bach refers to this backbore as "dark, Schmitt-style".
http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/media/bach/bachmouth.pdf
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I've had both, and while the 3B produced a big, rich sound, it was very tiring to play. It has a medium-depth conical cup and an open backbore. For me, the rim was not very comfortable, either.
The 3, on the other hand, is more like a 3C with a much deeper cup. Easier to play than the 3B, but still has a big, rich sound. It's what I use on cornet when I'm not playing brass band music.
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improver
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for so many informative posts |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | In addition to the deeper cup by design, all the B-cup backbores are #7 which is more open than the C-cup standard #10. Expect this piece to sound bigger and deeper. This is considered a more symphonic configuration. Also, I believe that the rim is not exactly identical to that of the 3 or the 3C.
Bach refers to this backbore as "dark, Schmitt-style".
http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/media/bach/bachmouth.pdf |
The 3 cup is deeper than the 3B cup. With Bach mouthpieces the A cup is the deepest, the non-letter cup (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) is the second deepest, and the B cup is the third deepest of each cup diameter (number) size. Also, I think at least part of the reason the 3 has the smaller backbore (the #10) is to compensate for its larger cup volume in comparison with the 3B and its #7 backbore. Note that the #7 (Schmidt) backbore isn't that much bigger than the #10. It is the #24 (Symphonic) backbore that is the biggest among the three. The deepest cup (the A cup) comes with that #24 backbore and though I've never played on, I imagine it must be a very open setup. Actually, I might have played one, and done so for many years. My first trumpet came with a Reynolds 7A mouthpiece and I played on that mouthpiece from age 7 until 10 (when I went to a Bach 3C). I remember that Reynolds mouthpiece had a very deep cup. I think it was a copy of a Bach 7A and if they also copied the backbore, well, there you go! Why such a mouthpiece was included with the Reynolds Medalist beginner trumpets is beyond me. But if it doesn't kill you it'll probably make you stronger...
Back to the subject: In my experience, a Bach 3 sounds darker than a 3B.
Though the rims shapes do vary between different letter (or non-letter) versions of the same number size Bach mouthpieces, the differences between the rims of the 3C, 3B and 3 are actually fairly minute. Here's a couple comparisons, courtesy of the Kanstul Comparator:
https://s25.postimg.org/68gmgz9sf/Bach_3_red_vs_Bach_3_B_green.jpg
Bach 3 (red) vs Bach 3B (green)
https://s25.postimg.org/9gl3u0w27/Bach_3_C_red_vs_Bach_3_B_green.jpg
Bach 3C (red) vs Bach 3B (green)
The 3D and 3E rim shapes are also similar to those of the 3, 3B and 3C. For many years, Charlie Davis did all his playing on either a Bach 3C (for lead and commercial stuff) or a Bach 3B (Orchestra). It was only in more recent years he had Bob Reeves match a 42M cup to a copy of his Bach 3C rim for heavy-duty lead type playing. In my opinion, 90% of the trumpet players out there, including those who prefer different cup depths for different types of music, could be satisfied with a collection of two or three Bach 3-sized diameter mouthpieces of different depths for less than the cost of a single high-end mouthpiece. But fortunately for the many fine mouthpiece makers out there, that's never gonna happen! 
Cheers,
John Mohan
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Last edited by John Mohan on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | ...With Bach mouthpieces, the non-letter models (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) are the deepest of each cup diameter size... |
Actually, the A cup is the deepest (other than those weird 5V series mouthpieces), but it's available only on certain sizes.
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PH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Size 7 versus size 8 sneakers? opinions?
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jaysonr
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Size 7 versus size 8 sneakers? opinions? |
The 9.5 is best.
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: |
The 3 cup is deeper than the 3B cup. With Bach mouthpieces, the non-letter models (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) are the deepest of each cup diameter size. Also, the reason the 3 has the smaller backbore (the #10) is to compensate for its larger cup volume in comparison with the 3B and its #7 backbore. Note that the #7 (Schmidt) backbore isn't that much bigger than the #10. It is the #24 (Symphonic) backbore that is the biggest. In my experience, a Bach 3 sounds darker than a 3B.
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A couple minor issues from an otherwise very useful post:
The deepest cup is actually the A cup. It is available as a standard cup only in some rim sizes, but I have an A underpart created as a screw rim mouthpiece for a 1C rim. Great, huge tone quality.
The other issue is the backbore. The largest is actually the 87, then the 117, and so on. The 24 is a larger backbore than the 10 or the 7, but there are still several sizes larger than the 24.
Specific cups selections come with specific backbores. The A cup comes with a 24 backbore. The B cup comes with a 7 backbore. The cups with no letters or with the C cup designation come with a 10 backbore standard. The D and F cups comes with a 76 backbore, and the E cup comes with a 117 backbore. Amazingly, the 117 is one of the largest of backbores.
I have a Bach 1C with a 23 throat and 87 backbore, and it is a very open mouthpiece. I also have a Bach 1C with a 57 backbore, which I have been told was designed for the rotary trumpet. Not sure about that, but it has some outstanding qualities for some players. The 25 backbore, of which I have no experience aside from the brief use of a 5V, is standard on V cup mouthpieces. The others listed as available include the 3 and the 41, and again, I've never seen one or played one.
It would be interesting to know the hows and whys of these backbores, as I an certain they are facinating and would be useful information for the potential buyer. Alas, aslde from the Bach mouthpiece manual and some very general scans on a Kanstul website, the configurations of these backbores are not well-documented.
AL
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I stand corrected regarding the A cup actually being the deepest and the cups with no letters being the second deepest. Regarding what I wrote about backbores, I only meant to describe the #24 as being deepest among the three I was writing about. I'll go back into my post and edit it to correct the mistake and be more specific about the backbores.
Thanks,
John |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | I stand corrected regarding the A cup actually being the deepest and the cups with no letters being the second deepest. Regarding what I wrote about backbores, I only meant to describe the #24 as being deepest among the three I was writing about. I'll go back into my post and edit it to correct the mistake and be more specific about the backbores.
Thanks,
John |
John,
I apologize if my post was in any way offensive. It was absolutely not my intent, and I appreciate your many superb contributions here.
All my best,
AL
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Size 7 versus size 8 sneakers? opinions? |
Just as I think at least a plurality of players, if not the majority, play best on mouthpieces about the size of a Bach 3C or maybe 3B for orchestra, I think a plurality, if not a majority of adult males walk and run best in shoes around a size 10 than a size 5 or 15. But for the exceptions, of course they need to wear (and play) what fits best. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | I stand corrected regarding the A cup actually being the deepest and the cups with no letters being the second deepest. Regarding what I wrote about backbores, I only meant to describe the #24 as being deepest among the three I was writing about. I'll go back into my post and edit it to correct the mistake and be more specific about the backbores.
Thanks,
John |
John,
I apologize if my post was in any way offensive. It was absolutely not my intent, and I appreciate your many superb contributions here.
All my best,
AL |
Oh no - not at all! I appreciate being corrected when I'm wrong. It's such a rare occasion I find absolute delight in it!
Seriously, I signed off with "Thanks" instead of my usual "Cheers" or "Best wishes" because I was thanking you and Dale for the corrections. |
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