Range

[FlerbMcgurb]

I've been doing lip slurs and range building exercises about 10 to 20 minutes a day and while my endurance has increased large amounts I still can barely hit high c let alone anything over. I have rather large lips, I play on a bach 3c right now, I'm very close to 50/50 placement and I play upstream, I tongue arch and roll in and roll out as normal and I just cant seem to ever increase my range, any help?
(I originally posted this in the High Range Development forum and was told to ask here aswell)
P.S Thanks for help in advanced!

[BeboppinFool]

If you could post a youtube clip of yourself playing, we would have a better idea of our starting point.

My suggestion would be to show us:

1) lip slurs from tuning note C to low C and back many times in one breath;
2) lip slurs from tuning note C to high C and back many times in one breath;
3) lip slurs from low C to high C and back many times in one breath.

Also, a little bit of you "just blowing" 16 to 32 bars of a melody where we can see how your mid-phrase inhalations look.

If you could have the camera angle from your right side showing us how your chops look from the side, that would be the best view. Fairly close, but not necessarily a zoomed in close-up of just your chops.

You'd be surprised how many of the Reinhardt guys might chime in and give you suggestions that would help you make you huge amounts of improvement in a very short time.

I would also invite anybody else to do this if you would like to have some Reinhardt guys look at your chops and see if we can spot things that might be holding you back and suggest ways to make dramatic improvement on your instrument in a relatively short period of time.

We are here to help, not to judge or criticize.
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

[FlerbMcgurb]

Okay, I recorded the video and I'll post the link tomorrow once it finally uploads!

[FlerbMcgurb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqrg3rblvtU

[JoshMizruchi]

I am always a little bit hesitant to point out a mechanical flaw because sometimes something may look weird but actually be right. And first and foremost, my philosophy is "do no harm."

That said, after watching your video, it is possible you *may* be using your tongue as a crutch for placement. I noticed sometimes you seem to kind of stick your tongue into the mouthpiece before playing. It's possible that this could be impeding your airstream. However, you should definitely get a second opinion on this because it's not clear that is what's going on. But it could be something you may want to think about, especially considering you didn't do it on every placement. Again, don't make any changes right away, just something to think about and hopefully it's food for thought.

From my experience (and again may just be me), having a good, thoughtful practice routine is crucial, and I know it can take a lot of time before one finds those routines, because it's different for many people; a very individual path for each person. I would be interested to know what your current practice routine is. Maybe a couple small changes could really facilitate your development. Also, how long have you been playing? Just trying to see what your exact stage of development is. This video was good and gave a lot of information, but we might need a bit more.

Also, I'm not totally convinced you're a IV. You look like you could be a IIIB, or possibly a IVA, but again, I'm not 100% sure. Hope this helps you .
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Josh Mizruchi
http://www.joshmizruchi.com

[FlerbMcgurb]

I've been playing trumpet for about two and a half years but I started on mellophone about three years ago, I dont use my tongue for placement at all, I just put it into the mouthpiece to make it wet because it feels weird for me otherwise.

[Tpt_Guy]

From the outside, it doesn't really look like an upstream setup, but based in the very low mouthpiece placement I can see how someone may think it is since a lot of upstream players have low placement.

Here is a blog post by Dave Wilken that gives some good basic information about the different upstream/downstream types: http://www.wilktone.com/?p=12

In it, there are diagrams outlining the different embouchure types, including IV, IVA and IIIB that were mentioned.

At this stage don't get too caught up in the minutiae of upstream/downstream. The guys here on this forum can point you in the direction of what to do to improve without worrying too much about terminology. In my opinion, a good start would be getting a bit more upper lip into the mpc. Emphasis on a bit. It also looks like you're placing the mouthpiece before you've really finished moistening the lips causing the embouchure to be pinned a bit too open. Practice this: moisten, then place, then play. See if getting that sequence down all by itself makes a difference, even if only in tone or ease of what you already can do.
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-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
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[JoshMizruchi]

One other thing I forgot to mention that may be really helpful, the importance of avoiding strain.

A lot of times range issues occur it's because there is some kind of strain going on in the playing. That's why it's imperative to try your best to avoid strain in your practice. Yes, you do have to push it some or you'll never develop. But if you strain or force, that can be counterproductive. When you're practicing, really more than anything else, you're programming your embouchure, teaching what to do and how to behave. So you want to try to master the feeling of relaxation. You have to build your chops, slowly over time, by pushing yourself but not overextending yourself. Stop before you're completely shot. Having trouble reaching a high note? Don't worry about it, move on to something else. It'll be there another day, and it will get more consistent over time with diligent and thoughtful practice.

The best way to avoid strain is to avoid playing on tired chops so your lips can vibrate freely. The balancing act of giving yourself a workout that doesn't completely waste your chops is a lifelong learning process. But just striving for that should help. Concentrate on making just one note sound as beautiful as you can, without straining. Note when I say beautiful, I mean melodic and pleasant, not necessarily super loud and big. Eventually the good feelings will start to take hold and your range, plus your playing in general, will improve.
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Josh Mizruchi
http://www.joshmizruchi.com

[BeboppinFool]

[Don Herman rev2]

This. Is. Awesome. !!!

It is great to see the interplay between teacher and student and be able to correlate concept to actual playing through visual and written responses.

It is also a reminder of deficiencies in my own playing that feed my fear of ever posting a video like that. Fantastic effort and feedback all around.

FWIWFM - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[dstdenis]

Hi Flerb. Thanks for posting this video.

It looks to me like your mouthpiece placement is very low. At 1:16, you turned to face the camera, and I can see the imprint from where the mouthpiece rim landed about halfway down the red part of your upper lip. You don't have 50/50 placement.

I think this explains why you're getting airballs on higher notes. The mouthpiece rim isn't allowing your upper lip to provide a working vibrating surface for those notes. It's like you have handcuffs on your chops—not enough upper lip in the cup. You might need a mouthpiece with a bigger inner diameter too, but I can't tell for sure from this video.

I'm reluctant to recommend embouchure and mouthpiece changes to someone in an internet forum, because these can be a long and difficult journey and I wouldn't want to throw someone down that road without a more thorough diagnosis and help with the changes. Maybe you could check with a really good trumpet teacher in your area who could evaluate your playing and help you make any necessary changes. Good luck!
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[BeboppinFool]

The above post from dstdenis is an example of the kind of "advice" you would get on any other dedicated forum on Trumpet Herald.

This is the Reinhardt Forum, and this man is looking for suggestions à la Doc Reinhardt regarding ways to improve his range.

The dstdenis suggestions about placement are NOT anything Doc Reinhardt would have ever said or recommended.

The part about getting a qualified teacher is possibly the only thing he said that Doc might have agreed with.

Incidentally, Doc Reinhardt did not change anybody's embouchure except one guy whose face had been shot in combat. Doc never recommended any kind of embouchure change. He would help you make adjustments to your present way of playing that would improve your efficiency, but he did not ever change anybody's embouchure.

Mother Nature has a way of finding our optimal mouthpiece placement, and this man's mouthpiece placement is absolutely not the problem.
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

[FlerbMcgurb]

Thanks for all the help! I'll be working my hardest at these things and its all much appreciated.

[FlerbMcgurb]

On another note, my mouthpiece also Isn't the most comfortable for me to play on, would it be a good idea for me to try using a different mouthpiece? I'm not quite sure whether to look larger or small and what to look at if I do because I've mostly stuck with the same thing

[BeboppinFool]

[EBjazz]

Interesting. So what do you do with a student who plays like this; "in the red"?

Eb
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[BeboppinFool]

[EBjazz]

There are two definitions of "playing in the red". One is where the rim covers some red meat, but not enough so the red meat is seen above the mpc. Many people play like this and have great success.
The other is like the kid in the video, where you can clearly see red above the mpc. I've seen you play Rich and that's not you. Sorry to say, I've never seen a player who had full power and didn't have struggles with range and endurance and sound who played this way.
So my question still remains, how do help someone like this?

Eb
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Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[BeboppinFool]

[EBjazz]

Is there a video where I can see this Rich?

Eb
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