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Unbranded Chinese flugelhorns vs. Schiller?


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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
GuidoCorona wrote:
Hmmm... Ever more fasinating, Trent!

Any plans per chance of introducing also a flug 4-valver from the same source?


Saluti, e buone cose! G.


No plans at all. I have yet to play a 4 valve design that is even passable.

T


OK here is where I stand. Although my unbranded plays well, sounds excellent for $280, having the thing fall apart in my hands in 48 hours doesn't inspire confidence. The vendor told me they could possibly pay for a repair. But I have to drive 100 miles round trip to get an estimate on fixing the trigger, & possibly changing the crook angle of the second valve slide so it goes in & out easier. Obviotdly they lie when they claim they "thorougjly " check it out before shipping. Even if they pay for the repair, what next? Soldering joints, valves?

For that reason I decided to purchase/order this Trent Austin flugelhorn for $479. It looks the same (mine is so compact in feel, almost like a cornet) but parts, hardware, valves aligned, etc, etc, aren't going to be problematic. Who know, maybe this will sound markedly better. (The demo recording sounded fat & deep, maybe indicatative of a deeper mouthpiece, but mostly a better player). Problem! I couldn't prepay or order. I do want to make the purchase (& comlarison) move on & play. I have no idea what the time frame can be.

As for Schiller? Attractive features. The Studio Artist flugel is presumably rose brass all over (except valve blocks) with a large 6 1/4" bell. Potentially a nice warm diffuse sound, though the shape if the instrument's not compact.. Many, many red flags here though. I called Jim Laabs in Wisconsin about basic features such as mouthpiece shank & to confirm the rose brass thing (pictured is yellow) & the flugelhorn expert (Troy) said he had to call the factory to find out!

Question: am I being a jerk by making a fuss (& sending back as defective) about the trigger & slide? Estimate for fixing trigger is $15. No estimate on the 2cnd valve slide until seen. But it can still be pulled out & reinserted for cleaning--just a pain doing it. The valves & lead pipe will move freely after an abrasive treatment. I don't want poor Lily (the vendor rep in China) to become an unwiiling organ donor,.... I'm just saying!

This is why trying to save a few bucks by getting some unknown whatever from who knows where built by random factories in China will probably not save you money in the long run.

I have known a few people to get a few Schiller horns (Eau Claire isn't far from the Twin Cities) and I don't recall anyone being overly pleased with their instrument. Personally, I have not played one.

Jim Laabs Music basically just deals in cheap Chinese instruments. To put it lightly, they're not Austin Custom Brass.

Good decision to get a horn from Trent.
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
bassguy wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
GuidoCorona wrote:
Hmmm... Ever more fasinating, Trent!

Any plans per chance of introducing also a flug 4-valver from the same source?


Saluti, e buone cose! G.


No plans at all. I have yet to play a 4 valve design that is even passable.

T


OK here is where I stand. Although my unbranded plays well, sounds excellent for $280, having the thing fall apart in my hands in 48 hours doesn't inspire confidence. The vendor told me they could possibly pay for a repair. But I have to drive 100 miles round trip to get an estimate on fixing the trigger, & possibly changing the crook angle of the second valve slide so it goes in & out easier. Obviotdly they lie when they claim they "thorougjly " check it out before shipping. Even if they pay for the repair, what next? Soldering joints, valves?

For that reason I decided to purchase/order this Trent Austin flugelhorn for $479. It looks the same (mine is so compact in feel, almost like a cornet) but parts, hardware, valves aligned, etc, etc, aren't going to be problematic. Who know, maybe this will sound markedly better. (The demo recording sounded fat & deep, maybe indicatative of a deeper mouthpiece, but mostly a better player). Problem! I couldn't prepay or order. I do want to make the purchase (& comlarison) move on & play. I have no idea what the time frame can be.

As for Schiller? Attractive features. The Studio Artist flugel is presumably rose brass all over (except valve blocks) with a large 6 1/4" bell. Potentially a nice warm diffuse sound, though the shape if the instrument's not compact.. Many, many red flags here though. I called Jim Laabs in Wisconsin about basic features such as mouthpiece shank & to confirm the rose brass thing (pictured is yellow) & the flugelhorn expert (Troy) said he had to call the factory to find out!

Question: am I being a jerk by making a fuss (& sending back as defective) about the trigger & slide? Estimate for fixing trigger is $15. No estimate on the 2cnd valve slide until seen. But it can still be pulled out & reinserted for cleaning--just a pain doing it. The valves & lead pipe will move freely after an abrasive treatment. I don't want poor Lily (the vendor rep in China) to become an unwiiling organ donor,.... I'm just saying!

This is why trying to save a few bucks by getting some unknown whatever from who knows where built by random factories in China will probably not save you money in the long run.

I have known a few people to get a few Schiller horns (Eau Claire isn't far from the Twin Cities) and I don't recall anyone being overly pleased with their instrument. Personally, I have not played one.

Jim Laabs Music basically just deals in cheap Chinese instruments. To put it lightly, they're not Austin Custom Brass.

Good decision to get a horn from Trent.


It really looks like I made that decision, although with the item being out of stock & a possible waiting list & no way to reserve a horn it can present problems.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:
It really looks like I made that decision, although with the item being out of stock & a possible waiting list & no way to reserve a horn it can present problems.

A turd in the hand is not as good as a bird in the bush....
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole time I'm going through this thread, I'm thinking: Just get the ACB Doubler with a copper bell.

I have one of the earlier ACB Doublers with the .433 bore, and it's a great horn, but having owned a Kanstul 925 with a copper bell and a .415 bore, that's one of the sweetest flugels I've ever played. Don't get me wrong, the ACB is awesome - it was priced at a point where I could jump on it at a time where I really needed to get a flugel back in my arsenal, and I've been playing it since 2013 - it gets the job done quite nicely, especially considering what it cost me. At the moment, I'm not really looking to replace it - there's just no need. I've A/B'ed this flugel directly against a Yamaha 631, and they are quite close - I couldn't actually say that I thought that the Yamaha, a 3x the price on the street, was any better.

So, if budget is a factor, just go with the ACB. Trent makes sure each one of those is good to go before he sends it out the door, and the new ones with the copper/bronze bells and the .415 bore are likely going to be even better than the one I've got.
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jmac723
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Joined: 18 May 2012
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Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:


For that reason I decided to purchase/order this Trent Austin flugelhorn for $479. It looks the same (mine is so compact in feel, almost like a cornet) but parts, hardware, valves aligned, etc, etc, aren't going to be problematic. Who know, maybe this will sound markedly better. (The demo recording sounded fat & deep, maybe indicatative of a deeper mouthpiece, but mostly a better player). Problem! I couldn't prepay or order. I do want to make the purchase (& comlarison) move on & play. I have no idea what the time frame can be.


I believe you can preorder on ACB's website. If not, you can call them and they'll help you out! Great people to do business with.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoke to Josh at ACB today... ACB will apparently continue to carry ACB doubler flugels with their traditional .433 bore, along with the new .415 model(s).

Please note: In a PM to me yesterday, Trent explained that his discomfort with 4-valvers is limited to current Chinese-manufactured flugels. His concerns do not automatically extend to 4-valvers designed/manufactured by higher and makers, such as for example, the F4 by Adams.. A version of which Trent proudly owns.

Saluti, G.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmac723 wrote:
bassguy wrote:


For that reason I decided to purchase/order this Trent Austin flugelhorn for $479. It looks the same (mine is so compact in feel, almost like a cornet) but parts, hardware, valves aligned, etc, etc, aren't going to be problematic. Who know, maybe this will sound markedly better. (The demo recording sounded fat & deep, maybe indicatative of a deeper mouthpiece, but mostly a better player). Problem! I couldn't prepay or order. I do want to make the purchase (& comlarison) move on & play. I have no idea what the time frame can be.


I believe you can preorder on ACB's website. If not, you can call them and they'll help you out! Great people to do business with.


I tried to preorder on their site & couldn't. I also left them a written message & no reply. I got an 8 am call from Josh who left a message. Can't get through to him though.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bassguy, the best time to find Josh available is between 10:00 AM EST and 11:00 AM Est... Translates to 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM Pacific... I suspect that if you call ACB at 8 AM Pacific you are towards the end of the best time.
Do not give up... Josh is an excellent guy to talk to... And has deep product knowledge.

Saluti, G.
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Hi Bassguy, the best time to find Josh available is between 10:00 AM EST and 11:00 AM Est... Translates to 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM Pacific... I suspect that if you call ACB at 8 AM Pacific you are towards the end of the best time.
Do not give up... Josh is an excellent guy to talk to... And has deep product knowledge.

Saluti, G.


Another option is to email us at info@austincustombrass.com and set up a time to chat. Trust me today was a crazy busy day so sometimes we are all with customers and not able to pick up the phone.

Best,
T
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

--- I, mistakenly, posted this note to a"631" thread a late nite or two ago, so the text, below, is a duplicate of that post ---

Some not-totally-relevant thoughts and observations about the Schiller line and about a cheap Chinese flgl.

Last year I played four Jim Laab Schiller herald trumpets and one pocket trumpet which I had for several days – each one seemed to be well built and was perfectly finished. The heralds played great and were consistent one to another. The pocket was a true winner and was praised by a few other pro players who had a chance to try it. Great value in those particular instruments.

After dropping in and out of playing a few times over distant and recent years, I needed a flglhrn a few months ago for a project that is not going to create much income so I started thinking – Cheap.

Looked at Trent’s site for his Doubler but he had none in stock for what seemed like several weeks. Looked at Schiller but also looked at importing a horn directly from China, which I did.

Don’t know if I got lucky but the horn – a direct rip-off of a Yamaha 631 (rose brass) – is built and finished very well. Ports on 2nd valve looked to be well aligned with a cursory inspection. Tone was OK, scale was odd but usable, but the sound would take an edge without too much effort – this was with a Curry 1FL which sounded great on a previous, long-gone, Blessing.

Since it looked so much like a 631, I took a chance and ordered a Yamaha leadpipe from Mouthpiece Express. It fit perfectly and made the horn a champ. The receiver on the Yamaha pipe let large Morse taper mpcs insert further than the stock pipe would allow and fit very snugly.

It doesn’t blow smoke and drip honey on its own but with a Flip Oakes Wild Thing 1¼, it’s very mellow and fluffy when asked or clear and present (without danger) if desired. Plays very well, and differently, with various mpcs. Schilke 16F4 gets it brighter without being edgy and would not get covered blowing solos in a big band or playing the head in a combo with other horns. CBK1 amps up the volume and enlarges the core without sacrificing mellowness – something that might be perfect in a British brass band.

$256 with a decent case, delivered to my door in six days. The Yamaha pipe was about $30 with shipping.

[It also responds exceedingly well to LeFreque tone enhancers but that’s a totally different subject]

Denny
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
bassguy wrote:
It really looks like I made that decision, although with the item being out of stock & a possible waiting list & no way to reserve a horn it can present problems.

A turd in the hand is not as good as a bird in the bush....


Well, ypi guys aren't gonna like this, but this turd in the hand does blow & sound nicely, & I found the missing screw on the floor & all it needs is a but which I still might find. The horn will need cleaning & a few incidental toothpaste applications on the valves & lead pipe (maybe a scothbrite pad on the valves) should do the trick. No need for a digital valve alignment now.

I got $100 knocked off the item so it costs me $180 out the door. This particular flugelhorn is rather small in terms of both the .413" bore & the bell flare, so I kinda look at it as a poor man's Bobby Shew horn. It's compact, lightweight, & gives me the same warm & fuzzy feeling I had with my old student model Besson cornet 50 years ago.

The Trent Austin horn is probably superior, but if I don't like it I pay shipping 2 way & restocking. Furthermore, to pay PayPal for the Austin doubler, Id have to sell my Hawk flugelhorn in 6 months. BTW, that .460 Hawk flugelhorn is a pretty well made, solid flugelhorn for $289. I look at it as a poor man's Getzen Eterna. In contrast to the .413 bore horn (which I like a little more) that Hawk is fat, robust, & little more open, with a bit of a bite, but it still sounds like a flugelhorn. I want to keep it. Using those two flugelhorns I can get 4 distinct sounds with my Yamaha 11F4 & Curry 7 FL mpcs. ranging from moderately bright (for a FH) to dark. It just goes to show you that I really like flugelhorns


Last edited by bassguy on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bassguy, I am with you about keeping both your flugels... As they have different physical characteristics, they are bound to cover complementary segments of the flugelly tembral landscape.


But please remove all scatological or otherwise inappropriate metaphores from your previous post.... TH is a family-friendly site, frequented by many young brass aficionados... Let's keep it free from age-restricted content.


Saluti, G.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Hi Bassguy, I am with you about keeping both your flugels... As they have different physical characteristics, they are bound to cover complementary segments of the flugelly tembral landscape.


But please remove all scatological or otherwise inappropriate metaphores from your previous post.... TH is a family-friendly site, frequented by many young brass aficionados... Let's keep it free from age-restricted content.


Saluti, G.


Guido, I removed that last sentence in deference to your request. However I really feel much different about it. Crazy Finns remark was a pun based on the old saying a"a bird in the hand...." If a person is old enough to play trumpet they're also old enough to appreciate the pun in its context without being corrupted. But then again, I am a very twisted individual myself....
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just posting that I'm satisfied with the unbranded 10.5 mm bore flugelhorn I got on eBay. Whatever intonation issues I encounter I'm sure are my own. It's nice to have this small bore flugelhorn as well as my Hawk.460 bore. Here I was advised to spend more on one particular horn, but the 3 instruments I bought suit me fine
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