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Seymor B Fudd
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 Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:49 am Post subject: Speaking or singing in tongues? |
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Lately I´ve been pondering over the tongue and its uses in playing. The arch, the placement/movements of the various parts of said organ. Guess it´s a part of my effort to keep my ageing chops going properly.
I´ve read old posts, finding mr Mohan´s recommending the K – modified tonguing(and a free lesson!), Pops Mc Laughlin´s hiss/tip of tongue further downwards on the bottom teeth (I know, simplified..) also free lesson), even McGovnor on dropping the middle of the tongue.
Then watching some videos over and over again: 1)Sara Willis MRI: tongue moving quite a lot, closer to the top of the oral cavity when striking high notes, to me surprisingly low in spite of rather high notes, at least sometimes, but again she´s playing a French Horn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA //2) Proper tongue arch for trumpet playing by dr Brian Shook /https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zov7sdjFi6k /3)trumpet playing/3D tongue motion analysis (www.researchgate.net)
And so forth.
Back in my younger days way(long long) prior to my discovery of the TH) I just played, happily ignorant of deeper knowledge of the mechanics. Since I never got any formal training until some years ago I tried to collect the wisdom of primarily Charles Colin; also, I was ”brought up” in the brass band movement, still same band. I mention this because of the special way brass band music was supposed to sound, in the 60 ties 70 ties: singing style, light vibrato. Often I played the soprano I noticed that I, when some higher note was to be played, such as an A, pianissimo I kind of visualized the whistle greeting done on war ships whenever some hot shot climbed on board. Thinking back now I wonder maybe I did some movement with my tongue, so as to mimic whistling???Honestly I don´t recall how/what I did. But it sure helped – those were the days.....
Anyway – presently trying to augment my range (the playable) I´ve got stuck with this tongue thing. The BE method has helped me enormously, expanding my range, providing me (by diligent practicing) with a very good endurance, in the brass band as well as on that (rickety...)lead chair, but I have some chores to go through in order to reach my goal, a solid F.
During my practice today I came to think of these vocals, recommended for the different registers, hoo haa he hee (please notice my swedish location..). Are these to be thought of, spelled out, or even kinda sung?? Imagine a monotoneously forever droning lecturer (I´ve met them....), not a single phrase is emphasized, no singing quality at all. So I just thought of these vocals, and then I kinda thought I was singing them, kinda energizing them. Remarkable difference in sound. Flashback from the ”vibrant” brass band period! And – I noticed that the position of my tongue was in some way affected, as if I got a clearer understanding of its position.
So concluding this maybe clouded thinking I wonder – how to do with your tongue??
I guess this has been discussed over and over again on the TH – but as I am in a state of re-inventing myself trumpet-wise every view/thought/idea is welcome.
Couldn´t make this post shorter, sorry for that.
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Richard III
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Before the experts jump in here, let me say I think the standard haw and hee stuff leads people astray. My feeling is that the actual formation of the tongue is nothing like this. I had a teacher tell me a long time ago when teaching Gordon stuff that the sides of my tongue should be on the side teeth and my tongue forms a channel. I said what? Well, here's a fun task for you. Practice growls and flutter tongue. Practice all kind of tongue effects. Do the Didgeridoo. All of this makes that tongue move and awareness climb. I do one arch for french horn and another for trumpet and another for cornet. They are all different because the focus of the whole mechanism of the lips, tongue and air is different. But that's just me. You asked.
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Before the experts jump in here, let me say I think the standard haw and hee stuff leads people astray. My feeling is that the actual formation of the tongue is nothing like this. I had a teacher tell me a long time ago when teaching Gordon stuff that the sides of my tongue should be on the side teeth and my tongue forms a channel. I said what? Well, here's a fun task for you. Practice growls and flutter tongue. Practice all kind of tongue effects. Do the Didgeridoo. All of this makes that tongue move and awareness climb. I do one arch for french horn and another for trumpet and another for cornet. They are all different because the focus of the whole mechanism of the lips, tongue and air is different. But that's just me. You asked. |
Yep I asked! Thanks! Fluttering came easily; immediately I noticed front/upper part of my tongue touching upper oral cavity just behind upper teeth, tip of tongue touching upper gum. So awareness yes. Also I can relate to the "channel" idea, tongue kinda hanging on molars, playing low register.
Higher up I get the feeling my tongue arches though. But that might have to do with different horns and the requirements of these? My immediate need is the high (above high C) register.
Your point augmenting the awareness - right?
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Yes. Awareness. Shaping and arch with just the right angle. Too much and it shuts off the air. Just right and it is effortless. Well, easier than jamming the mouthpiece into your teeth.
Then there's the method of very small chamber in the front of the mouth created by the tongue and a very small aperture. You can hear that one in many high note players. The sound is exactly that. Small. No resonance. Fun stuff here. Lots to explore.
Listening to others and hearing what they are doing by the sound. Small chamber. Large chamber. Tension in the tone. Relaxed aperture tunnel and full support backed by tongue support. All out there.
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Listening to others and hearing what they are doing by the sound. Small chamber. Large chamber. Tension in the tone. Relaxed aperture tunnel and full support backed by tongue support. All out there. |
Hmmm. This sounds like the basis for a new thread. Perhaps someone can post a video of a high not player and describe what techniques he is using. I think that would be something of interest to a lot of folks here.
Warm regards,
Grits
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1jazzyalex
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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This is a good thread.
To me, it seems a lot of this is using unaccustomed muscles in unaccustomed ways. And it's all happening inside the mouth and it's small muscles generally so there's no single good description of how to do it right. You just know the muscles and coordination required to kick a football have been studied to death, but not this.
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| 1jazzyalex wrote: | This is a good thread.
To me, it seems a lot of this is using unaccustomed muscles in unaccustomed ways. And it's all happening inside the mouth and it's small muscles generally so there's no single good description of how to do it right. You just know the muscles and coordination required to kick a football have been studied to death, but not this. |
Matthias Bertsch (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264517131_Trumpet_Playing_3D_Tongue_Motion_Analysis_Performing_Science) demonstrates in a fascinating sequence the motions of the tongue.
I have a hard time understanding the video but it is instructive. Vivid motions up/down by the back of the tongue doing triplets/double tongue; in higher register the tongue seems to rise in its entire length (as shown in the Willis video).
He(Bertsch) writes in the paper that the 3 dimensional motion patterns are rather rounded involving the whole tongue for all articulations.
Maybe this is "nerdish" but I like to think there is a "special" way of hitting these higher notes. Still searching......
Pops McLaughlin tells us go practice 1000 high C:s then you are ready; others maintain its a knack. As our Lionel!
Middle register tongue "channels", might be so, my tongue seems to flatten when the "elevation" begins. But if too close to the "roof" airstream stops.
So how to optimize???
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So how to optimize??? |
Stop thinking about it. |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | So how to optimize??? |
Stop thinking about it. |
I like to approach this from a similar angle. K always says the tongue does not arch and has no function in range. Here's my take on the whole process and one that I try to communicate when talking to open minded fellow players that I know. By the way, most do nothing with this.
Start with the body. Fill it with air. Each note has the right body approach and air behind it. Focus that with just the right tongue level and shape. Lastly resist the opening effect this has on the lips. So the only effect the lips have is the hold the aperture against the airflow for that note. I have read this before. The whole approach is lips last. Chest up. Big resonance chamber there. Use the body to make the notes.
Tonguing. Some of this comes from french horn. That requires more air pulse and less tonguing. But some of that helps in trumpet too. This is all about using the big muscles. There's more but that's it for now.
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Richard
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | K always says the tongue does not arch and has no function in range. |
Excuse me?
Show where I said that. |
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TrpPro
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Actually, K DOES always say that the tongue has a function in the embouchure by influencing the muscles of the face in producing tension in the lips to produce a pitch. He just doesn't attribute that influence as having anything to do with speeding up the air.
Mis-quoting/characterizing someone is never productive. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you TP. Well said. |
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EBjazz
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Richard III
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I also think the whistling comparison has merit too. I have a friend who can't whistle. Funny he struggles endlessly with playing too.
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Richard
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Speaking or singing in tongues? |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | Lately I´ve been pondering over the tongue and its uses in playing. The arch, the placement/movements of the various parts of said organ. Guess it´s a part of my effort to keep my ageing chops going properly... |
It's conventional wisdom to arch the tongue to help play higher notes. There are endless arguments about what this actually does, but it does seem to help for some reason.
I've seen videos of very advanced players like Håken Hardenberger and Lynn Nicholson saying that arching the tongue isn't absolutely necessary for playing high, though it helps when first trying to establish the upper register. I find it interesting to hear similar thoughts from players in such different styles of trumpet playing. They both said something to the effect that air and embouchure can do the job without tongue arch, although the tongue arch can be helpful. Mr. Nicholson gives a pretty convincing demonstration of this in his "Got High Notes" video, I think.
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