Missing upper molars & upper range on flugelhorn

[bassguy]

I'm a comeback player who started strictly with the intent of playing flugelhorn for fun. My reason for quoting 35 years ago is that I found the trumpet inherently strident & bright. Back then I owned a Getzen Eterna flugelhorn that was hardly played because I was soerswd into the drudhery of trumpet etudes. Now as a fcomebacj lugelhornist I have no real frame if reference or recollection of past flugelhorn playing.

Essentially my present limitation us playing above the staff. One thing that happens is that my upper cheeks fill up with air. That never happened in the day. In the comeback players section, someone pointed out that my tongue should cut off the air flow at the base if NY upper molars and BUNGO: no upper molars on both sides! If I raise the tongue to the gum line the air flow is hampered. By the way, the other teeth are intact. Just missing wisdom teeth & both rear molars on both sides.

It seems the integrity if the emboucgyre disintegrates as the build up if air increases. Sometimes it's better to not fight it & just push as the air builds up.

Anyone here encounter this, or know someone who has lost all upper molars, & specifically had the build up of air diminish range? Some observations:

---it seems the larger the horn, the farther I have to spread my teeth to play it & go from one register to another. I just replaced my big .460 bore flugel with a. 413 bore & there is perceptively less opening & closing if the jaw. (Even far less movement on a trumpet going from one register to another. )

--- some agree with me that the best practice for plating a flugelhorn is in a flugelhorn. Others tell me to play a teumlet--which I don't wanna do, but might have to. (If I buy one it will be a $50 eBay one. I have a vuvud recollection of my embouchure while playing at my best. Nothing to compare my present flugel embouchure to. Some adamantly claim they should be the same, & that doesn't seem right.

---frequently my lips (inside the mouthpiece) touch & tha cayses funny tones, & leads to ta brash sound as I ascend, & frequently culminates in the lower octave sounding simultaneously.

All this has brought about a mouthpiece identity crisis. I did decent playing on a Bach 7C at age 15 (full grown then). After two major embouchure changes that were unnecessary & set me back years, at the end I was using a Bach # 1 at a whopping 17.5mm & my teacher urged me to try a George Mager moc. This indicates that ultimately I should be playing something really big on flugelhorn. But with being out of shape, & the flugel being different from the trumpet, I have been recently most productive using a small Yamaha 11F4. Sometimes my lips feel very cramped, & find momentary relief going with a 14F4 (16.76mm, & later a 16F4 (17mm) but not for long.

First question though, has anyone here had similar issues after losing upper Bach teeth?

[Trumpetingbynurture]

How long have you been playing? If you're still in the vicinity of a beginner, all of this can be explained by a lack of embouchure development, which can take a while

[bassguy]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Honestly, without seeing you play, no one will know from what you've described.

But I personally doubt the molars are the issue. There is a guy called Larry Meregilliano (you can look him up on youtube/facebook) who lost most of his teeth and could still play. He plays with Dentures now. Can scream double Cs no problem.

I don't really see how absent molars would change much. For example, I can open my jaw very wide so there is over an inch between the teeth at the side, and blow fast air without my cheeks doing anything unusual really. I can feel a little more air pressure against them but looking at me, you would barely be able to see the difference. No puffing happens.
Of course, I couldn't play like this because my front teeth are then far too wide apart.

If you can't change your molars, then forget about them. All of your issues sound to me like you are doing something quite strange.

It sounds to me as though the majority of your problems are to do with some pretty fundamental problems with how you form your embouchure.

While I usually wouldn't recommend lip buzz I think this is what would serve you the most benefit. Practice buzzing the lips, and work at it until you can buzz higher.

See here for lip buzzing instructions:
https://youtu.be/SKBNeXKmXRw?t=1m41s

Note that your teeth do *not* need to be very far apart to play the trumpet. I mean, 1/2 an inch or less. That's it. If you're opening more than that to play in the middle register, stop.

Keep the jaw relaxed and so that it's in resting position. For example, when you're just sitting around, your teeth are likely, most of the time, not to be closed, but a little apart in a comfortable resting position. That's the same feeling for the jaw when you play the trumpet.

Mouthpiece placement - Make sure that the mouthpiece is at least 50% on the top lip or more. (And conversely, less than 50% on the lower lip. This is what is correct for probably 95% of players.
A double buzz can suggest an incorrectly low mouthpiece placement.

Lastly, it sounds like you're collapsing the lips into the mouthpiece. Say or think "mmm". As you blow, don't let the lips change from the 'mmm' position.

To get used to this: Buzzing will help.

Try the following.

---

Buzz the lips (see video linked above) until you can comfortably buzz a middle G or higher. Try to buzz without letting the cheeks puff.

Once you can do that, buzz the G then add the mouthpiece onto the lips while keeping the buzz going. Then remove the mouthpiece while still maintaining the buzz. Repeat this many times.

Now Buzz lips - add mouthpiece - add the rest of the trumpet.
Keep the sound going. If it sounds bad at first, don't worry about it. Just try and keep the buzz going.
Repeat many times.

Then buzz lips -- add mouthpiece -- add trumpet -- hold note. Stop. Leave mouthpiece on the lips. Breath through the nose. Play the middle G with an air attack (Just blow, no tonguing).
Repeat many times.

Now add tonguing to that G. Think "Tsssahh" then after a while, get rid of the 'sss' and just think 'tah'.
Repeat many times.

Now play many slow G's and try and get your most pure, cleanest sound.
Repeat many times.

Rest for a while

Play whatever you want to.

Do this every day for a week or so. If it sounds good, great. If it sounds bad, great. Don't worry about it. Just strive for a clean, pure sound, and don't be concerned if it doesn't happen immediately.

---

If it is comfortable and logical to do so, and the sound is clean, begin to maintain this 'mmm' playing formation for all your playing.

Buzzing will teach you not to let the lips chase the air into the cup of the mouthpiece. If you maintain the 'mmm' the cheeks wont ever fully balloon. They may expand slightly, but not like Dizzy's did.

Report back on the outcome.

[TKSop]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Hey TKSop,

Here's a little more on about that.

For the vast majority of players a higher placement is better. He May be the 5% or so that is upstream and I can't know for sure either way, but a double buzz is a unique kind of problem that is caused most often by a bad mouthpiece placement.

Long term, he may be a low placement type. Short term, without a teacher guiding him, it's better to assume he isn't the exception to the rule. The final point is that people with a true low placement type will find the mouthpiece will tend to slide back down into that position if it is correct, where a downstream player won't.

When combined with lip buzzing and waking in the rest of the instrument, the placement should automatically correct quite a bit. However, an upstream will tend to auto-correct to that position because it's quite natural for the mouthpiece to slide downwards. The reverse isn't true. So setting with a low placement, if it's familiar, you won't really correct upwards, you'll simply have playing problems.

So I agree that you're rejecting the 'everyone sbould have a 2/3rds top lip placement' advice and I agree. I see that, however, as the safest and most adaptable starting point for everyone. There are many fine players who don't play like that. But most do, and walking in the buzz will callibrate to some extent the placement on its own.

That's my thinking. Let me know if you disagree

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Also, I believe Reinhardt used to sometimes have upstream players play as a IIIB for a period of time to ensure the Correct embouchure muscles form as upstreams frequently fall into a bad smiling to ascend habit

[TKSop]

I do very much disagree with certain fine points, but my main point still stands - this is absolutely NOT something to be prescribed blind on an internet forum.

I disagree vehemently with this notion that this is something to be prescribed like this - if you can't see what IS going on, you have absolutely no basis to suggest what SHOULD be going on for a specific player (even if you/we think we know their type - there's still variation within each).

I'm far from an expert... but heed the old adage that the mark of the wise/educated is that they know how much they don't know (and hand over to those who do).... sometimes that's lack of knowledge, sometimes it's lack of ability, sometimes it's the lack of the information to even get started.

[Trumpetingbynurture]

You seem to have a very particular view on mouthpiece placement, which is that it is absolutely make or break for a player. It's simply not true in my opinion. There are variations in what is optimal for each individual. A player who has been playing successfully for years I'd never suggest moving a mouthpiece placement. But a beginner who is struggling with all of the fundamentals and has been playing for 5 months without teacher guidance?
Yes, absolutely. Because the mouthpiece position will settle into the best place relative to the teeth.
The situation you're rejecting against are people whose placement has been moved after achieving some success simply because it looks wrong. Again, this is not the case. This person's embouchure I'd not functioning and they have no in person guidance.

For that reason I very much believe they should begin with ensuring the mouthpiece placement is at least 50-50. Which it may already be in which case we are debating nothing.

Also, there is a feedback system here. If he comes back in two weeks and says that there was no improvement at all or things are over all worse, I would have offered to connect via Skype (for free) to see what's going on.

In which case 95% odds are pretty reasonable. In fact, the chance of lip buzzing improving his setting is probably less than that,l. In fact, all playing advice has pretty low odds of being precisely the right fix. Even in person, a teacher is making educated guesses and giving advice that seems likely to help based on what they can see and hear. But even then, it's likely, not certain.

So honestly it's really not at all radical advice at all. It's very conservative advice. I suspect you are perhaps a low placement player who has had a bad experience with playing in a higher placement? Tell me though, even playing like that, were your problems at all what have been described here?

Beginners, even those studying with a Reinhardt teacher, don't go straight to their optimal placement, there is some significant experimentation/testing required, and often the right type is not evident for quite some time, as it may take a while before the jaw and lips are sufficiently developed to keep their ideal placement from collapsing.
I also doubt Reinhardt suggested anyone start playing with a low placement because it is wrong for most players.

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Also, I was a low placement type for several years. I stopped playing for s number of years because I had borderline embochure dystonia. When I started again I started with the placement much higher and I made steady progress ever since. For me, I wish someone had started me off with a higher placement because my teacher was a 'if it sounds okay, don't worry about it' person. And I did sound okay. It was everything else that was the problem.

[TKSop]

It's ironic that you're making assumptions about my motivations and playing, when it sounds more likely that your own story is influencing your advice rather than mine doing so...
(fwiw I've always played the same way - I'm one of "the lucky ones" who developed naturally without needing intervention, indeed I was already performing at a high level before I even knew about DSR types, but I'm pretty much as clear cut 3b as you're likely to find and consistently so throughout my range).

I'm not going to argue the percentages with you - I think it's enough that you don't feel that offering blind embouchure advice is inappropriate.
Regardless of their levels of experience with the DSR method, you won't find the teachers on that board ever offer blind advice like this, they'll always say they need to see it first... Indeed, their stories of DSR himself are the same, if they phoned him for advice he'd tell them he wouldn't give advice unless they'd come in to see him... If top class experts won't do it, I certainly don't think the rest of us should be.

If you/we suspect there even might be embouchure issues, the very first thing you need is confirmation - video at least...

[bassguy]

[bassguy]

[quote="Trumpetingbynurture"]Honestly, without seeing you play, no one will know from what you've described.

But I personally doubt the molars are the issue. There is a guy called Larry Meregilliano (you can look him up on youtube/facebook) who lost most of his teeth and could still play. He plays with Dentures now. Can scream double Cs no problem.

I don't really see how absent molars would change much. For example, I can open my jaw very wide so there is over an inch between the teeth at the side, and blow fast air without my cheeks doing anything unusual really. I can feel a little more air pressure against them but looking at me, you would barely be able to see the difference. No puffing happens.
Of course, I couldn't play like this because my front teeth are then far too wide apart.

If you can't change your molars, then forget about them. All of your issues sound to me like you are doing something quite strange.

It sounds to me as though the majority of your problems are to do with some pretty fundamental problems with how you form your embouchure.

While I usually wouldn't recommend lip buzz I think this is what would serve you the most benefit. Practice buzzing the lips, and work at it until you can buzz higher.

See here for lip buzzing instructions:
https://youtu.be/SKBNeXKmXRw?t=1m41s

Note that your teeth do *not* need to be very far apart to play the trumpet. I mean, 1/2 an inch or less. That's it. If you're opening more than that to play in the middle register, stop.

Keep the jaw relaxed and so that it's in resting position. For example, when you're just sitting around, your teeth are likely, most of the time, not to be closed, but a little apart in a comfortable resting position. That's the same feeling for the jaw when you play the trumpet.

Mouthpiece placement - Make sure that the mouthpiece is at least 50% on the top lip or more. (And conversely, less than 50% on the lower lip. This is what is correct for probably 95% of players.
A double buzz can suggest an incorrectly low mouthpiece placement.

Lastly, it sounds like you're collapsing the lips into the mouthpiece. Say or think "mmm". As you blow, don't let the lips change from the 'mmm' position.

To get used to this: Buzzing will help.

Try the following.

---

Buzz the lips (see video linked above) until you can comfortably buzz a middle G or higher. Try to buzz without letting the cheeks puff.

Once you can do that, buzz the G then add the mouthpiece onto the lips while keeping the buzz going. Then remove the mouthpiece while still maintaining the buzz. Repeat this many times.

Now Buzz lips - add mouthpiece - add the rest of the trumpet.
Keep the sound going. If it sounds bad at first, don't worry about it. Just try and keep the buzz going.
Repeat many times.

Then buzz lips -- add mouthpiece -- add trumpet -- hold note. Stop. Leave mouthpiece on the lips. Breath through the nose. Play the middle G with an air attack (Just blow, no tonguing).
Repeat many times.

Now add tonguing to that G. Think "Tsssahh" then after a while, get rid of the 'sss' and just think 'tah'.
Repeat many times.

Now play many slow G's and try and get your most pure, cleanest sound.
Repeat many times.

Rest for a while

Play whatever you want to.

Do this every day for a week or so. If it sounds good, great. If it sounds bad, great. Don't worry about it. Just strive for a clean, pure sound, and don't be concerned if it doesn't happen immediately.

---

If it is comfortable and logical to do so, and the sound is clean, begin to maintain this 'mmm' playing formation for all your playing.

Buzzing will teach you not to let the lips chase the air into the cup of the mouthpiece. If you maintain the 'mmm' the cheeks wont ever fully balloon. They may expand slightly, but not like Dizzy's did. /,Quote]

Larry Merwgiluano has dentures I don' (yet) so its apples to oranges). Clearly the openings cause an air pathway to the upper cheeks & that isn't good--now the question is to what extent my upper register suffers per se. Dizzy dealt with it, but as a come back player I never enciuntewd this 35 years ago.

[bassguy]