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John Mohan
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: Natural Talent and/or Hard Work and Practice |
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I just read a wonderful article that discusses the relationship between natural talent and hard work. The article happens to be about aviation, but it is fully applicable to our area of study (developing brass playing ability). In summary, the article points out that natural talent combined with extremely hard and dedicated practice almost always brings about success, natural talent without the hard practice practically guarantees failure, and hard work and practice, even in the absence of natural talent still can bring about success. I agree wholeheartedly with the article.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/15000-hours/#.WZB77GeRbTc |
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starkadder
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: |
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"It's not how much you know, it's how you use what you know."
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: |
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This may be apocryphal, but there is a quote, supposedly attributable to Maurice Andre, where he was asked about his natural talent. "I don't believe I'm more talented than anyone else, I just work harder than they do."
I suspect if he did say something along those lines, it was probably in French anyway.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Finished my 1st read of 'practice of practice' a few months ago and as a comeback after 50 years off I simply loved it. I have all the time in the world these days and I am spending 3 hours a day with the horn on the face, but I got it bad and thats not enough - but about all my chops can really 'work' after only 2 years or so back. So many things I can do that really help me get ready to perform can be done without 'face time'. I'm also finding short periods of really focused practice helps and seems to be slowly extending my play time. I never stopped avid listening in the non playing years, so now I know where I want to take my music, and its nice to know that I did practice a bit when I wasn't playing. Ive just touched on where I can use the book to keep me doing this and improving. I didn't read the aviation article but 1 central theme to the book is that talent has been attributed by artists throughout time as mostly sweat and perseverance yet never once proven to be God given. There was a time when I felt I was gifted at playing trumpet, 50 years later I must have misplaced that gift - or maybe the gift was playing and practicing 6 hours a day and hanging around with good musicians and listening to everything I could hear. Funny how that gift dried up without the play practice and performance. If it was a gift I should have picked up where I left off, not unable to play a full octave with a steady tone. I think a comeback player that could hold his own at one time has a funny challenge - you know it can be done with a vague idea of how you did it but the do it part got broke somewhere. I really didn't start to make progress again until I forgot how I played waay back when and started concentrating on improvement that day, and honing the things I worked on to things I dont do well and probably never did well. These strategies are bringing slow but noticeable improvement.
Sorry about the ramble but I thought I'd second the good review on 'Practice" and let other comebackers know about the focused practice on your weak points. I makes me feel better to play something I know well , but it makes me better to play something that kicks my ass (slowly).
Rod |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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The ambitious player with half the natural ability will pass up the lazy "talented" player every time.
If you have the ambition to do what it will take in the way of practice, don't worry...you've got the talent.
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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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BGinNJ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad the author commented on the quality of those hours at the end of the article. That's a big deal, especially with high time jet pilots- they might have 20,000 hours, but 10,000 of it is at cruise with the autopilot doing everything.
Likewise with trumpet playing- lots of time in the practice room is necessary, but you'll get a lot more valuable experience per hour putting yourself in a variety of playing situations.
As in aviation, experience is gained when you're challenged by circumstances beyond the ordinary. |
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I haven't read the article - I will right after posting - but there's no doubt that hard work can match, or FAR exceed, the gains from natural ability. However I can'y denying bearing witness to some cases where, no matter the amount of time invested, some folks just can't learn a skill that others find innate/natural.
Although perhaps that's often some mental blocks or just badly designed learning systems.
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| solo soprano wrote: | | The ambitious player with half the natural ability will pass up the lazy "talented" player every time. |
Isn't Bud Herseth credited with saying something to that effect?
This subject is something that I've taken a direct interest in lately, mostly due to the fact that for the first time in a long, long time, I took on a trumpet student this summer.
One of the things I really tried to stress to this kid, is that one of the keys to succeeding with the trumpet was to recognize that there are no tricks or shortcuts to anything - the only thing that will get you there is work, and specifically, work on basics:
tone production
articulation
flexibilities
finger technique
When a player is lagging on any of those areas, it makes playing music on the trumpet difficult.
I also worked to try to show him how to properly practice when preparing new or challenging music.
In any case, my thought with this kid is that he'd be a lot more successful if he was putting in the work and the time rather than approaching it casually.
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | solo soprano wrote: | | The ambitious player with half the natural ability will pass up the lazy "talented" player every time. |
Isn't Bud Herseth credited with saying something to that effect? |
Credit: Bill Knevitt, that's where I heard it, it also written on page 57 of Bill's book "Developing 21st. Century Range and Endurance On trumpet.
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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I've always believed that hard work, proper practice and study are more important than natural ability. Combine both and you get people who make it to the top of whatever field they are in.
About 100 years ago I knew and worked with a trumpet player who had tons of talent, but zero work ethic. Sure, he was a good player, but could have been ten times better.
Brad
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"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I've always thought there are 4 groups you could make, some broader than others...
1) Those with natural ability to learn noticeably quicker.
2) Those with natural ability to put in the hours and determination to stick to it.
3) Those with both of the above.
4) Those with neither.
Although in theory, everyone is capable of putting in the hours and grinding out progress over the longer term, I'm sure we can all agree that not everyone is cut out to actually go through with it - I consider it something of a natural talent in itself to have that degree of determination and application.
I think there is something in the idea that some people just naturally learn a bit more quickly - that's not to say that everyone can't learn given enough time, but some will find things relatively straightforward and others will find things relatively difficult and it probably won't take them the same amount of time to arrive at the same checkpoints along the road.
The third group is probably the smallest... but it's also the one where I'm almost certain you'd find 99%+ of the worlds most famous and most capable players.
The fourth... well, we all know plenty of them... people who always seem to find it hard going, who don't seem to put much (if any) time into it between rehearsals and as a result go absolutely nowhere. |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | solo soprano wrote: | | The ambitious player with half the natural ability will pass up the lazy "talented" player every time. |
Isn't Bud Herseth credited with saying something to that effect?
This subject is something that I've taken a direct interest in lately, mostly due to the fact that for the first time in a long, long time, I took on a trumpet student this summer.
One of the things I really tried to stress to this kid, is that one of the keys to succeeding with the trumpet was to recognize that there are no tricks or shortcuts to anything - the only thing that will get you there is work, and specifically, work on basics:
tone production
articulation
flexibilities
finger technique
When a player is lagging on any of those areas, it makes playing music on the trumpet difficult.
I also worked to try to show him how to properly practice when preparing new or challenging music.
In any case, my thought with this kid is that he'd be a lot more successful if he was putting in the work and the time rather than approaching it casually. |
If this kid has the ability to be a player please have him read the Practice of Practice because it has so many good fun activities that can be done without the horn to the face, some creative ways to fool yourself into success, etc.. In general a way to take the 'work' out of practice. When I was in HS I just wanted to play music (Marching band practice was like an early circus jobs 20-30 marches a day) not exercises. The book hints at ways to make exercises and scales music (isn't that what they are). Ways to listen that teach as you enjoy. If I had known these things when I was 20 I'm pretty sure I would never have quit playing (even tho my big bands were a dyin). I think anyone can find something useful in this, one of the best 20$ I ever spent!
Hope the kid sees the light, I see way too few trumpet players these days.
Rod |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | This may be apocryphal, but there is a quote, supposedly attributable to Maurice Andre, where he was asked about his natural talent. "I don't believe I'm more talented than anyone else, I just work harder than they do."
I suspect if he did say something along those lines, it was probably in French anyway. |
LOL! I suspect that Mssr. André refused to acknowledge his talent because, as many greats I have known do, they have tremendous talent but work extremely hard to hone their craft to the ultimate level of excellence. I suspect his first go at the conservatoire, where his teacher beat him and sent him away, was that teacher seeing his talent without the needed level of dedication. I have known many talented players who gave up their music and went into other fields because they either no longer wanted to work that hard, or lost interest.
AL
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Hard work and plenty of determination got me through a tough period during my effort at a comeback after a 50 year hiatus, and because I don't have natural talent that hard work and determination will continue. I am 81 and have no ambitions to be a pro player, I just want to play the best I can until I am called to that better place up yonder.
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1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
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trickg
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Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | If this kid has the ability to be a player please have him read the Practice of Practice because it has so many good fun activities that can be done without the horn to the face, some creative ways to fool yourself into success, etc.. In general a way to take the 'work' out of practice. When I was in HS I just wanted to play music (Marching band practice was like an early circus jobs 20-30 marches a day) not exercises. The book hints at ways to make exercises and scales music (isn't that what they are). Ways to listen that teach as you enjoy. If I had known these things when I was 20 I'm pretty sure I would never have quit playing (even tho my big bands were a dyin). I think anyone can find something useful in this, one of the best 20$ I ever spent!
Hope the kid sees the light, I see way too few trumpet players these days.
Rod |
Rod, this kid has a couple of things working against him at this point, the main one of which is the fact that he didn't do much in the way of chops building up through his senior year of high school, and and he's going into college in a non-music related major - I just don't know when he's going to have the time to put in the kind of work it will take.
I sent him a note as sort of a culmination to encapsulate some ideas, and part of what I talked about was learning how to listen to music, as well as learning to objectively listen to himself so that he could further work to refine his playing. But again, it's for naught if he doesn't have the time to work on anything.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Natural Talent and/or Hard Work and Practice |
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| John Mohan wrote: | I just read a wonderful article that discusses the relationship between natural talent and hard work. The article happens to be about aviation, but it is fully applicable to our area of study (developing brass playing ability). In summary, the article points out that natural talent combined with extremely hard and dedicated practice almost always brings about success, natural talent without the hard practice practically guarantees failure, and hard work and practice, even in the absence of natural talent still can bring about success. I agree wholeheartedly with the article.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/15000-hours/#.WZB77GeRbTc |
Agreed John.
In fact there are cases where natural talent can be a nemesis. In as much as a young trumpet player possessing very strong chops naturally may run into a snag sooner or later. As his less blessed peers develop solid fundamentals and eventually surpass him in other aspects.
He may find himself out to be what is sometimes called a, "One dimensional trumpet player". And his is a sorry path. As his peers gain in range, control and overall musicianship he is no longer the person best prepared for the lead trumpet book.
There was a topic I wanted to start and may even do so yet one of these days. Is kinda related to Kohn's hood post. About the musician who hits a certain plateau. Usually sometime in college or high school. And then stays at that same level the rest of his life. In fact the first person who once explained this unfortunately all too common human condition to me is a person who oddly enough is one of the best examples of this "perpetual plateau" in a musician I've ever met.Thinks he's the reincarnation of Freddie Hubbard. In reality? He's hardly more than what I call a "chair filler".
"Chair Filler" Definition,
Brings a trumpet to a rehearsal or show and yet provides little to no positive contribution to the everall musical process. What causes this? In some cases it might just be that the "chair filler" just wants to be in a group or band. Its only a hobby for him
Like amateur bowling or softball.. However for the man I just described?
In his case it is his ego. Since he holds at least one credential (ie got his teaching job through certain channels because his own parent used to hold the same job as he holds now ie: institutionalized nepotism!). Anyway the darndest thing about the man is how well he describes his own unteachable condition but without having a clue that he's exactly the very same kind of person whom he describes.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | I've always thought there are 4 groups you could make, some broader than others...
1) Those with natural ability to learn noticeably quicker.
2) Those with natural ability to put in the hours and determination to stick to it.
3) Those with both of the above.
4) Those with neither.
Although in theory, everyone is capable of putting in the hours and grinding out progress over the longer term, I'm sure we can all agree that not everyone is cut out to actually go through with it - I consider it something of a natural talent in itself to have that degree of determination and application.
....... |
I disagree with #2, I don't think determination and a strong work ethic has anything to do with natural ability or "talent." Maybe it's a product of upbringing, but I don't believe it's related to "talent." I was one of those somewhat driven kids who practiced 3-5 hours per day (3 during the school year, 5 during summers), but I believe I did that not because of any natural ability, but because I don't believe I have much "natural talent" at all.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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dershem
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| All of the best players I know of are the ones who always have their horn in their hands. Most of the worst players i know are the ones who rely on it 'just happening naturally". |
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TrentAustin
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