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Natural Talent and/or Hard Work and Practice


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y-o-y
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am eagerly awaiting Robert P's thoughts on this topic

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143919&sid=56b51f5b9dd47a0dffff54bbdba1d2cc
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dobs
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything,"talent", I believe, is the unbreakable love for what you do and the undefeatable motivation to become better at it as a result of which you will not accept any set backs and defeats but get back up time and time again and sacrifice what is necessary to reach your goal. Not everyone has this extraordinary love and dedication and is prepared to pay the price. Therefore some people will give up along the way or rather be satisfied with the level of playing they have achieved. And that is perfectly fine. But I think it is kind of unfair to attribute the success of those moving forward to some unknown physical trait.

The world is full of excellent trumpet artists with lots of different physical features to show it can be done. Louis Maggio could have simply given up playing the trumpet after his injury. But instead he was determined to make it work and by that came up with a trumpet and embouchure method that has influenced Claude Gordon and many other methods today and many artists attribute Maggio’s approach as being the cornerstone for their high chops.

Did Maynard have a special dental configuration and lung capacity that aided in him becoming one of the greatest high note artists of all time? Did Maurice André have a unique oral cavity that was instrumental in him being one of the most admired classical trumpeters? I don’t know and I suppose no one actually knows. But I think, if you take away the hard work they both put in and the journey they took and consider the fact that excellent trumpet players come in all shapes and sizes, it is certainly not useful to limit yourself by believing that you just don’t have it.

That is why it makes me sad when teachers discourage a student that shows love and motivation by telling him that he is just not fit to play the trumpet or reach high notes, because he has “thick lips”, “too small lungs” etc.. Not too long ago it was not uncommon that high note playing was considered to be a mystical ability that few can achieve and that you have to have some kind of unspecified natural ability to do so. Thanks to many excellent teachers, the advance of teaching methods, the exchanging of ideas (e.g. on Trumpetherald) more and more people disprove that notion today.

As such, let’s all have fun doing what we love and let us not adhere to self-limiting beliefs.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:

Off to the shed (started at 5:40 this morning...) There are no shortcuts. Enjoy the journey.

-T


Ah ha, another early riser. I usually blow my first ( soft ) note at 5 am.
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1



TrentAustin wrote:
IMHO

Talent opens the door...

Hard work (and LOTS of it) keeps the doors opening.

When people call me a natural I show them my practice routine. I just happen to work really hard at being a "natural".

Off to the shed (started at 5:40 this morning...) There are no shortcuts. Enjoy the journey.

-T
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lewins
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Talent is practice in disguise" - Jonathan Harnum
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
TKSop wrote:
I've always thought there are 4 groups you could make, some broader than others...

1) Those with natural ability to learn noticeably quicker.
2) Those with natural ability to put in the hours and determination to stick to it.
3) Those with both of the above.
4) Those with neither.


Although in theory, everyone is capable of putting in the hours and grinding out progress over the longer term, I'm sure we can all agree that not everyone is cut out to actually go through with it - I consider it something of a natural talent in itself to have that degree of determination and application.
.......


I disagree with #2, I don't think determination and a strong work ethic has anything to do with natural ability or "talent." Maybe it's a product of upbringing, but I don't believe it's related to "talent." I was one of those somewhat driven kids who practiced 3-5 hours per day (3 during the school year, 5 during summers), but I believe I did that not because of any natural ability, but because I don't believe I have much "natural talent" at all.

Brad


I can see where you're coming from, but at the same time you look at something like intelligence and there's definitely a nurture element as wll as a nature element to it - who's to say that there isn't a nurture element to #1 as well as to #2?

Is it not possible that the people who seem to naturally learn skills faster (ie: the naturally talented ones) do so atleast partly as a result of their upbringing and their exposure to opportunities to practice acquiring skills during their formative years?


I don't disagree at all that a strong work ethic is the result of nurture primarily (though the passion for becoming the best possible trumpet player, or whatever else, I'm convinced is so simple) - I'm just not sure there's necessarily that much of a difference...
In the case of "natural talent" in the sense that progress comes more quickly/easily and the case of a strong work ethic, you either have it or you don't - and those that have both are the ones that really, really succeed.
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
In "The Practice of Practice" is a chart on this, too. Very useful for me.

https://thepracticeofpractice.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/talentmindsets_poster_6-5x11.pdf


That's a great poster.

I notice in just ordinary, average people I might meet on the bus or in the store, there's very much that set of beliefs on the left side of that poster. You either have talent or you don't, etc.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get this talent comment a lot and it really p****s me off.

I believe in hard work very hard work. I practice the trumpet for between 4 and 6 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. I do everything full on. I succeed at everything because I work my butt off failure is not an option.

I have been told many many times that I am a natural at whatever I do at the time. I was told it when I was pistol shooting, when I was rifle shooting, when I was doing Archery, when I was playing golf, when I was playing trumpet, when I was creating art, and when I was writing. I am a nationally recognised poet. I have a fanbase stretching from Canada to Russia and including Europe.

I am a silver medal holder in fencing (foil) I am a natural at everything and a natural at nothing.

The truth is nobody can be a natural at everything. Hard work is all that matters and all that delivers success period.

I was told just yesterday that whatever I do I am a success at it. That is offensive to me and belittles the huge amount of work I put in to everything to become successful at it.

I have only one principle. Only the best is good enough, there are no limits.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Hard work is all that matters and all that delivers success period.

I was told just yesterday that whatever I do I am a success at it. That is offensive to me and belittles the huge amount of work I put in to everything to become successful at it.

I have only one principle. Only the best is good enough, there are no limits.


I believe I've read the quote attribute to Maurice André that he was convinced that his success owed primarily to the fact that he worked harder than others. I've always found this an interesting (and somewhat provocative) contention, in view of the fact that I believe he started playing in his early teens, and he was already winning jobs and international solo competitions in his early twenties. The accumulative effect of hard work model for explaining his success no doubt described his personal experience of it - and I'm sure he worked very hard to be successful - but I doubt that in less than ten years, he put in more work than most professional trumpet players put in during a lifetime, and yet he inarguably got exponentially better results from those few years, so I don't think volume or intensity of work alone (or in combination) come close to explaining his success.

He grew up in a brass playing family, so he probably had a strong idea of how good playing sounded from his earlier musical experiences, and also had good teachers. Many people work hard, but without clear ideas of what they're working hard towards, or good, sequential and appropriate guidance.

Personally, I'm sure that he worked very hard, and had whatever intangible quality it is that we call talent. But my opinion is this - having heard good playing, and having good instruction (and probably quite a bit of luck) in addition to tremendous hard work, his hard work, and that of other prodigiously successful people, was successfully directed so that he took one step in the right direction, then another, then another, and continuously moved forward, and improved quickly, consistently, and in direct proportion to his willingness to work, whereas other people less "talented" (lacking clarity of goals, or adequately refined understanding of how to reach them) could work similarly hard, but with many missteps, wrong turns, and otherwise wasted time and effort, and not necessarily find any correlation between the amount or intensity of their work and the outcome. I don't think the "talent" aspect of it is that people who we call gifted automatically were good at something, simply that they were better able than others to recognize when they were going in the right direction, and when they weren't, and to use their time and effort productively.

My two cents.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lewins wrote:
"Talent is practice in disguise" - Jonathan Harnum


+1 "5% Talent and 95% Sitzfleisch" Carl Fruh, Chicago cellist and teacher RIP.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A I totally agree.

practice in itself is not going to achieve rapid development. much more rapid development comes from intelligent and smart practice and I see how this worked for Maurice Andre, and very well put by the way.

This is how I practice I look for the smart way and it delivers.

In life you have to know where you want to go and how to get there and then decide what success looks like. If you do this then you can get where you trying to go with measures that you are achieving it.

For me that is what smart practice is:-
Know where you need to be
Know how to get there
Practice and develop
Test that you are getting there
If you fail the test find out why and correct it
result - success
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the more talent you have the more doors are available to you to open.


Arjuna wrote:
+1



TrentAustin wrote:
IMHO

Talent opens the door...

Hard work (and LOTS of it) keeps the doors opening.

When people call me a natural I show them my practice routine. I just happen to work really hard at being a "natural".

Off to the shed (started at 5:40 this morning...) There are no shortcuts. Enjoy the journey.

-T
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y-o-y wrote:
I am eagerly awaiting Robert P's thoughts on this topic

I'll take you up on what I perceive as sarcasm. If it isn't let me know.

There's a lot of variables involved. There's physical tools one is born with - tissue, teeth and bone, cardiovascular system, etc. There's a wiring/neuromuscular element, there's an intellectual/psychological element. There's what kind of training you get. And of course the work you put into it.

Obviously your physical tools can make a big difference. Some people have chops that facilitate playing high. They just do. Or even just basic tone production. If one player is handicapped in just making notes speak compared to someone else, they're always going to be working against a hurdle someone else isn't. If one player's chops cooperate better it's going to let them develop and display their inherent talent more readily.

Not everyone is wired equally internally. If someone has good physical features, how motivated are they? How readily can they process what happens when they play? Do they have a feel for the nuances of playing? Do they have an inherent coordination & dexterity to develop advanced technique?

You can always work and improve, but I don't think it's an even playing field for everyone.

I think Doc is a unique example of someone who was blessed with all the right elements along with an obsessive desire to push himself to improve - and he happened to come along at a particular time in history when there were various styles to absorb and a professional scene he was able to participate in. All parts of the equation are important. I'm incredulous as to whether there's anyone else who's ever picked up the horn who could duplicate his performance on "Chimes Festival" or "Open The Gates Of Love" for example. I've long felt Doc was working with a different set of tools than everyone else.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It takes some longer than others"--William Adam
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I get this talent comment a lot and it really p****s me off.

I believe in hard work very hard work. I practice the trumpet for between 4 and 6 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. I do everything full on. I succeed at everything because I work my butt off failure is not an option.

I have been told many many times that I am a natural at whatever I do at the time. I was told it when I was pistol shooting, when I was rifle shooting, when I was doing Archery, when I was playing golf, when I was playing trumpet, when I was creating art, and when I was writing. I am a nationally recognised poet. I have a fanbase stretching from Canada to Russia and including Europe.

I am a silver medal holder in fencing (foil) I am a natural at everything and a natural at nothing.

The truth is nobody can be a natural at everything. Hard work is all that matters and all that delivers success period.

I was told just yesterday that whatever I do I am a success at it. That is offensive to me and belittles the huge amount of work I put in to everything to become successful at it.

I have only one principle. Only the best is good enough, there are no limits.

Am I the only one trying to figure out if this post is a joke or sarcasm? By your own compliments to yourself, you may well be "the most interesting man in the world" At least you won't be accused of being a natural at modesty!
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. I think there is something more beautiful about the late bloomer.



Billy B wrote:
"It takes some longer than others"--William Adam
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking only for myself- it's a damn good thing I was blessed with a fair amount of natural talent...
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falado
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I've been watching this thread with interest. If there is any sarcasm, etc., there are some good points and I've been using the good points with my marching band students.

Every year I have students that want to audition for all district band. I give them the solo piece and scales for each year as the school year begins, audition are the first Saturday in January. I'm pretty busy planning concerts, marching band, rehearsing, etc. and tell them to start working and see me if they want more instruction. I even have recordings of the solos. Here's what usually happens. They don't work at it until the Christmas concert is over even though I constantly remind them. So, they frantically work for two or three weeks before the auditions. The ones that are truly invested I don't have to worry about, they're practicing. After they audition, some of the ones who feel robbed, I remind them what I told them in August. Oh, I also tell them this when I initially give them the music. No matter what natural tallent you think, or have been told you have, while you were playing video games or with your phone, or socializing, someone else was practicing and they're the ones in the band. Sometimes reality needs to hit you with disappointment, hopefully you learn from that. I too was told I have natural talent, but I work at it.
Just some thought, Dave
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
"It takes some longer than others"--William Adam


There is so much similarity not only to how and what the Greats taught, but also what they said. From Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet by Claude Gordon:

Quote:
Often we hear the term, "So and so has a natural lip." Actually, everyone has a natural lip. Some individuals just fall easily into the knack of playing the instrument while others must develop it. So we come to the necessity of a systematic approach.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is some info on Maurice Andre'. Please take note of an expert's opinion of his natural talent.

Student at the Paris Conservatory (1951 - 1953)
After 4 years study, Barthélémy told his father that he had to get Maurice, who then was working in the mine, to Paris to study at the Conservatory. But being a miner he could not afford that. Then Barthélémy got the idea that  Maurice should try to become a member of a military band. Soon after,  Maurice was in Mont-Valerien with the 8th regiment. At the Conservatory you could get a free place as member of a military band. At 18, in 1951, Maurice left the mine and entered the Paris Conservatory in the class of Professor Raymond Sabarich (1909-1966).
On photos from that time one can see Maurice in the trumpet class in a military uniform.
It was not an easy time in Paris without any money, a son of a miner.  He always ate at the barracks, and studied in the barracks too. Raymond Sabarich soon discovered that this young miner was a great talent and he gave Maurice a "lesson" that he recall in this way in an interview:
3 months after my arrival in Paris, a good lad from the south and all that, Sabarich gave me a real piece of his mind. He had felt straight away that I was gifted, as is said, and so he loaded me with work… and I didn't deliver the goods as he wished. After 3 months he threw abuse at me and chucked me out of the class. Before his death - poor man  -  Sabarich always said: "lt's when Maurice André woke up.''  How a good scolding does one good occasionally !
After 3 months with a lot of practice, Maurice returned and played all the 14 etudes from Arban (in the back of the book) without making any mistakes. After only 6 months of work in Paris, studying the cornet, he won the first prize (1952). The next year (1953), he won the first prize for trumpet.

On his now deleted website, Mr. Andre was asked if a player practiced as much as Mr. Andre did, would he be as good.
Mr. Andre politely answered no and that he was gifted with a natural ability to play the trumpet. Smart practice and training along with a natural ability
makes for world class players. You can be exceptional, but without some natural talent, you will not be a world class player.
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