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Robert P
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: Why does bore have any effect on freeness/openness of blow? |
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I hear about certain horns being more open, taking more air to fill up.
Even wrapping your lips around the mp and blowing hard you can barely feel any air coming out of the bell - when actually playing you're moving a small amount of air, far less air than free-blowing as per above. As i understand it the only reason you have to move any air at all is because that's how the buzz is generated, that the horn would work if the buzz could be generated without blowing air.
Since all the air has to pass through the throat of the mp which is a fraction of the diameter of any horn, why would the size of the plumbing on the other side of the mp throat make any difference as far as how open/free-blowing an instrument is?
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Last edited by Robert P on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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It's not about air flow, but about acoustic energy, as I understand it. My theory is that the player uses the buzzing embouchure to input acoustic energy into the horn. That energy passes through the venturi of the mouthpiece, after bouncing around the mouthpiece cup for a bit, and into the horn. We have all read about nodal and anti-nodal points spaced throughout the instrument which create back-and-forth flow of this energy, thereby creating tones.
The bore size limits the dispersement of this energy. The smaller the bore, the more concentrated that energy stays, so it has higher impedance and the player feels more resistance. Certainly, there are other parts of any instrument that affect this feel, but all things being equal, I have experienced two instruments with just .002" difference in bore. The larger one would play a minor third higher before the impedance reached the point where it "shut down" on me.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | It's not about air flow, but about acoustic energy, as I understand it. My theory is that the player uses the buzzing embouchure to input acoustic energy into the horn. That energy passes through the venturi of the mouthpiece, after bouncing around the mouthpiece cup for a bit, and into the horn. |
Etc. etc.
If it's not about airflow, why would one horn require more huff 'n puff to fill up than another? The only thing your lungs know is what's escaping through your lips.
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | | It's not about air flow, but about acoustic energy, as I understand it. My theory is that the player uses the buzzing embouchure to input acoustic energy into the horn. That energy passes through the venturi of the mouthpiece, after bouncing around the mouthpiece cup for a bit, and into the horn. |
Etc. etc.
If it's not about airflow, why would one horn require more huff 'n puff to fill up than another? The only thing your lungs know is what's escaping through your lips. |
Because the greatest variable is the player. Let me explain what I mean using my own development. I used to play a Benge 5X. It had a fairly open blow for a ML bore horn, not too different compared to the blow of a 3X+ model Benge. In the upper register, it would shut down on me.
Later, as I pursued more efficiency in my playing, I began to use less airflow to get the desired amount of sound volume. The byproduct of that was that horns of different sizes didn't feel so different anymore. I could see beyond just the "blow" and begin to discern things like what I wrote above.
This is what has brought me to believe there are two basic approaches to trumpet design. One is to produce a horn that aids the player in being efficient. The other is a horn that opens up capabilities to an efficient player.
If you search out posts concerning, say, the Jupiter Ingram 1600i, I think you will read about a trumpet that requires very little effort to produce a quality sound. It is referred to as "an efficient setup."
On the other end of the spectrum lies the Wild Thing and perhaps a few others like the Schilke X-4, the Adams A4, etc. If you read what people have written about these trumpets, you will find more references to "ease of tonal coloration," "dynamic range," "ease of expression" and things like that.
So, I have come to look at bore as a (very) rough indication of what kind of demands from the player and the kind of performance the designer wanted each horn to meet.
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Brian A. Douglas
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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p76
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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The feel of a trumpet (open or "efficient"), is mostly affected by the venturi in the leadpipe, and to some extent where the node hits near the tuning slide.
IMO, the bore size is not that relevant these days, and is used more as marketing information - i.e. if it's large bore it's "open" and if it's m bore it's "efficient".
Of my trumpets (which range from 0.455" to 0.468") I find the most open blow is my 0.460" YTR634. My 0.468" Large Bore Selmer Radial can be made to run on a surprisingly small amount of air...YMMV
Cheers,
Roger
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| First off, the sound is not created by the buzz. You input wind into the trumpet, a standing wave is created, (witchcraft happens) and the lips buzz in sympathy with the standing wave. Bore size is very relative. It is one of many factors that dertimines how much resistance is perceived by the player. Mouthpiece gap, throats size, throat entrance, backbore volume, leadpipe Venturi, tuning slide dimensions, bore size, bell tail size, bracing, etc... |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| JJMDestino wrote: | | First off, the sound is not created by the buzz. You input wind into the trumpet, a standing wave is created, (witchcraft happens) and the lips buzz in sympathy with the standing wave. |
You're saying it's not the physical action of the vibrating lip tissue that causes the sound?
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely. Though, I'm not saying this, science says it. This is not coming from my theories but from the work of Arthur Benade.
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/documents/Benade-Trumpet-1973.pdf
The lips buzz as a result of the sound. The lips do not buzz to cause the sound. They buzz as a reaction, vibrating in sympathy from the oscillations of the standing wave created inside of a tube. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JJMDestino wrote: | | The lips buzz as a result of the sound. The lips do not buzz to cause the sound. They buzz as a reaction, vibrating in sympathy from the oscillations of the standing wave created inside of a tube. |
What initiates the standing wave? Or are you saying the standing wave exists at all times whether the instrument is being played or not?
What you've stated doesn't eliminate the sound being created by the lips. Have you ever seen a brass instrument played with a characteristic sound without a vibrating membrane?
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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The wind excites the air that is already in the horn. The wind sets everything in motion. The standing wave beings occilating and then the lips vibrate as a result of the wave. Therefore, wind, then standing wave, then lip vibration. Yes, the lips need to be free and suple to vibrate, but again, they vibrate as a result of, not a cause of the the standing wave.
https://youtu.be/MVs2G60-ilo |
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p76
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks JJM, interesting video
Cheers,
Roger
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C - Yamaha 641.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As i understand it the only reason you have to move any air at all is because that's how the buzz is generated, that the horn would work if the buzz could be generated without blowing air. |
Your understanding is not accurate.
The buzzing alone would not generate much sound.
The bore size is ONE of several thing that affect the acoustic impedance of the instrument. And it is an important variable.
In general (all other things being equal) the larger bore has less impedance. Therefore is "feels" to the player to have less resistance.
The sound transmits more readily and therefore more air flow is required to sustain the sound.
The transmitted sound has a certain amount of total power. That power is supplied by the flow AND the pressure of the air supplied by the player when playing a tone.
A lower impedance instrument requires relatively more air flow but less pressure. So it "feels" less resistive. (Because it is!)
The higher impedance instrument requires relatively less air flow but more pressure. (So it feels more resistive)
But both require the same power for the same loudness of tone (sound power).
Since power = flow x pressure, the same power can be achieved but with different flows and pressures. (And thereby, different resistances)
Most losses of power are due to flow losses. So the more resistive instrument limits these and is the more efficient set-up. However, that does not necessarily make it the more desirable to the player.
The player has to select the instrument (and impedance) that balances "freeness " vs efficiency. That is, their preference. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | As i understand it the only reason you have to move any air at all is because that's how the buzz is generated, that the horn would work if the buzz could be generated without blowing air. |
Your understanding is not accurate.
The buzzing alone would not generate much sound.
The bore size is ONE of several thing that affect the acoustic impedance of the instrument. And it is an important variable.
In general (all other things being equal) the larger bore has less impedance. Therefore is "feels" to the player to have less resistance.
The sound transmits more readily and therefore more air flow is required to sustain the sound.
The transmitted sound has a certain amount of total power. That power is supplied by the flow AND the pressure of the air supplied by the player when playing a tone.
A lower impedance instrument requires relatively more air flow but less pressure. So it "feels" less resistive. (Because it is!)
The higher impedance instrument requires relatively less air flow but more pressure. (So it feels more resistive)
But both require the same power for the same loudness of tone (sound power).
Since power = flow x pressure, the same power can be achieved but with different flows and pressures. (And thereby, different resistances)
Most losses of power are due to flow losses. So the more resistive instrument limits these and is the more efficient set-up. However, that does not necessarily make it the more desirable to the player.
The player has to select the instrument (and impedance) that balances "freeness " vs efficiency. That is, their preference. |
Daryl,
This is the simplest and clearest post from you that I have read. Thank you for writing it.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent explanation from Kalijah. Another aspect to be considered is that in my view a low impedance or very free blowing instrument demands more strength from the embouchure - it has to provide a level of resistance that is not being provided by the instrument, as well as using more air to keep the sound going. This is why a smaller mouthpiece is often successfully paired with a large bore or free blowing horn. Results can be very player specific, a strong player with an efficient chop set up may feel very little extra "work" is required from a large horn and enjoy the benefits that Shofarguy described.
Be careful equating bore size with how free blowing a horn can be, there are lots of other design elements that can affect this quality. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | Excellent explanation from Kalijah. Another aspect to be considered is that in my view a low impedance or very free blowing instrument demands more strength from the embouchure - it has to provide a level of resistance that is not being provided by the instrument, as well as using more air to keep the sound going. This is why a smaller mouthpiece is often successfully paired with a large bore or free blowing horn. Results can be very player specific, a strong player with an efficient chop set up may feel very little extra "work" is required from a large horn and enjoy the benefits that Shofarguy described.
Be careful equating bore size with how free blowing a horn can be, there are lots of other design elements that can affect this quality. |
The next thing that must be factored in is the instrument's ability to resonate. The way I test this is to see how little energy it takes from the embouchure to begin and sustain a clear tone. By the explanations above, one would think a large bore, large bell, large mouth pipe design like the Wild thing would take quite a bit of energy, but it's not so.
Even though I agree in part with the above comment about mouthpiece design balancing out the bigger horn's playing characteristics, The Wild Thing has always defied that rule. I have played it successfully with a Bach E size cup with a #26 throat all the way up to a deep cornet cup with a #11 throat (with a number of others in between) and in each case the horn responds well and resonates with very little energy input.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | As i understand it the only reason you have to move any air at all is because that's how the buzz is generated, that the horn would work if the buzz could be generated without blowing air. |
Your understanding is not accurate.
The buzzing alone would not generate much sound.
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Has anyone ever come up with a mechanical/electronic vibrator (no wisecracks) in place of lips that buzzes mechanically to test this? I.e. such a buzzer would act on the air in the instrument but isn't initiated by air.
I still maintain that without the buzz there would be no sound.
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: |
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You might be interested an article by Thomas Moore that appeared in the June 2001 ITG Journal, "Playing Without Buzzing: Fact or Fiction?"
Moore had his students design mechanical lips that would play a trumpet. The mechanical lips did use air, not a mechanical vibrator. But they could configure the experiment so that compressed air was blown through the lips while clamped to a trumpet mouthpiece. No buzzing. When they attached a trumpet to this arrangement, a note began to play.
| Thomas Moore wrote: | | By correctly orienting the mouthpiece on the lips, we were easily able to achieve a state in which the lips were not buzzing when blowing into only the mouthpiece, but began producing a low C as soon as the trumpet was attached to the mouthpiece. Having taken the human factor out of the experiment, we were sure that there was no change in the embouchure as the trumpet was brought into contact with the mouthpiece. |
So what initiated the vibration, if the lips weren't already vibrating before the trumpet was attached? Moore compared this situation to feedback in an audio sound system, which begins with an imperceptible amount of ambient noise in the room.
| Thomas Moore wrote: | | Likewise, there is a small amount of sound inside the trumpet (at the correct pitch level) that can be fed back to the lips. Eventually, this fed-back sound can set the lips to buzzing at the correct pitch. The correct pitch is determined by the length of the horn and the tension in the lips. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | You might be interested an article by Thomas Moore that appeared in the June 2001 ITG Journal, "Playing Without Buzzing: Fact or Fiction?"
Moore had his students design mechanical lips that would play a trumpet. The mechanical lips did use air, not a mechanical vibrator. But they could configure the experiment so that compressed air was blown through the lips while clamped to a trumpet mouthpiece. No buzzing. When they attached a trumpet to this arrangement, a note began to play.
| Thomas Moore wrote: | | By correctly orienting the mouthpiece on the lips, we were easily able to achieve a state in which the lips were not buzzing when blowing into only the mouthpiece, but began producing a low C as soon as the trumpet was attached to the mouthpiece. Having taken the human factor out of the experiment, we were sure that there was no change in the embouchure as the trumpet was brought into contact with the mouthpiece. |
So what initiated the vibration, if the lips weren't already vibrating before the trumpet was attached? Moore compared this situation to feedback in an audio sound system, which begins with an imperceptible amount of ambient noise in the room.
| Thomas Moore wrote: | | Likewise, there is a small amount of sound inside the trumpet (at the correct pitch level) that can be fed back to the lips. Eventually, this fed-back sound can set the lips to buzzing at the correct pitch. The correct pitch is determined by the length of the horn and the tension in the lips. |
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This is all fine and dandy, but not really the complete reality, is it?
Yes, a beer bottle will hum in the wind. But, ya gotta have wind! I have never heard any sound coming from a trumpet either before or after any player started or stopped buzzing into the mouthpiece. I have never heard a trumpet produce a sound by just blowing air into the mouthpiece.
I HAVE heard tones begin with articulated lip buzzing. I have heard those same tones stop when the lips stopped buzzing. So, one can site theoretical physics and even proven science, but it doesn't produce music. To me, isolated theory is of little to no use, unless I can use it to make music.
I find that there is much more to be gained by understanding how the embouchure DOES effect one's playing than how it doesn't.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| It's not "theoretical". It's proven and published by many acousticians (Benade and Caldwell). Brass instruments produce sound when the lips vibrate in sympathy with the standing wave. Wind is blown into the horn, a standing wave is set into motion and reflects back to the mouthpiece. The lips then vibrate in sympathy. The lips are vibrating as a result of the wave, they are not the cause of the wave. |
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Hugh Anderson
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| When you compare 2 trumpets, the difference is seldom only bore. |
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