the Tounge!

[sean007r]

What exercises do you do?
How important do you feel the tongue is in trumpet playing?

I've been posting, responding and reading everyday here since I started and the one thing that I’ve realize is that everybody has there own opinion on how to do _________ (whatever)!
So in my quest to become a "real" trumpet player I become confused and/or frustrated with hearing/seeing all these opinions and not knowing weather or not they will work for me!

So I continue my search.....
What am I doing wrong or incorrectly?
No one here can tell me because you can't see me!!!
So I tackled another "teacher"!
This time he is not only a trumpet teacher, but a HS band teacher too. Therefore, even after one lesson, I think he has helped me more that anyone else over the past year!!!

The biggest thing I got from him was…
My warm-up was too long
And
the use of the tongue!
I knew it [the tongue] was important and continue to read about its’ importance, but I just think mine is toooooo lazy.
I've NEVER given it any thought when I played!!! NEVER EVER! and now I must assume that this is why I can't get past F (octave above tuning). My C sounds good,(octave above tuning) not thin at all, but I think my throat has been trying to constrict to do the work and this is why everything above C is tough!!!!

Therefore, I need to get my lazy tongue UP and working.
What can I do on a daily bases?
My new teacher advises to sing AHHH-EHH or whistle in octave.
What do you do?
_________________
TTFN
Sean
___TTT_c___/|
(_uIII_o__) |

[pedaltonekid]

Try the Irons exercises. 5-9 look very basic, but if you practice them diligently according to the principles listed in the book you will make great strides.

These are best done by using a buzz aid on a few lines of each exercise. I usually use them for valve combinations 1,2 & 3 and 1 & 3. That is because those combinations are the most out of tune and it allows me to just focus on tongue placement and air. After doing those valve combinations well with just air, I can tell on the remaining combinations played on the horn if I am doing it properly.

Even though the notes in those exercises are well below your current limit, it will give you the proper feel that will allow you to increase your top end of the range.
_________________
Best Regards, Play Well!!

[dbacon]

Tension in the tongue causes it to swell and block the air. "OH" on the inhale, reverse the air with "TOH" and follow through with the air. Get Don Jacoby's book, practice Schlossberg, Clarke, Irons, Arban (it does not need to stop at high C!), easy flute book with melodys into the high register, get Bob Findley's book for balance. Use the lungs as bellows move lot's of air freely. The first step in fixing any problem. Listen to the sound your air makes as you inhale. If you hear tension (hissing) the throat is tight. Open up!

Dave Bacon

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:09 ]

[evolution]

Dave and Quad, I totally agree. Just want to add that for exploring the tongue movement I got good results with playing quite soft. Just let the air flow through an open throat (toh, you remember) and hit easy vibrating lips. Don't jam the air through the horn. That can cause resistance followed by a closing throat to survive the back pressure. Getting used to the relaxed lip-throat thing and the efficient use of the tongue, it is amazing how easy it gets to play a soft piano high C. Don't overdo the tongue-thing in the upper register. Especially above high C I overdid the tongue-movement. The steps in the upper registers aren't bigger than in the staff, merely one or two semitones. No need to make more than necessary.

Let the air flow!

Just my two Cents
_________________
Enjoy music!

[_bugleboy]

Quadruple C wrote,

"There are many schools of thought on this topic as we have seen in all the forum topics. One commonality is forward movement of the front of the tongue in either a rolling motion or lifting motion."

To say that ".......forward movement of the front of the tongue in either a rolling motion or lifting motion" is part of the Caruso is a misrepresentation. It is not. In all the years I studied with Carmine, he never once prescribed a particular tongue movement to achieve success as a player. Mother Nature should be allowed to decide the best positioning and movement of the tongue. The actual resting place of the tongue (in a developed embouchure) and its movement during sound production may have characteristics that are described by the above quote. But to imply that these characteristics are achieved in a volitional or intended way is to misrepresent the Caruso approach.

You guys think too much about what this muscle is doing or what that muscle is doing in the face and in the respiratory system. It's easy to do that when your chops are in good shape and the air is moving well, but IMO it is a disaster for a student to have any concern about those issues when his chops or air are not working well. Get the air moving well and the embouchure in balance and THEN you can analyze it to your heart's content.

CR

[PH]

I would have to say that Charly nailed Mr. Adam's view of the role of the tongue when he described Caruso's take. This might be how the tongue works (or it might not), but you do not consciously will the tongue to do anything. The tongue "pronounces" the note and then pursuit of a gorgeous tone, the flowing air, and repetition allow the body and the unconscious mind to find strategies that work for you.

[Max Reverb]

YES!!! PH and Bugleboy are so right. Let nature put the tongue where it needs it. As soon as I start thinking about it, everything falls apart. I tried like the dickens to keep the tip resting behind my lower teeth like some methods prescribe and my tongue wants to do something entirely different.

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:09 ]

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:10 ]

[PH]

Knowing about something and being able to do it are two entirely different things. I don't know how my computer or my car engine works, but I can make them go.

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:10 ]

[dbacon]

As a teacher you need to know how things work. As a player, it can get in your way.


Dave Bacon

[brnt99]

There does seem to be two schools of thought about the art of learning to play the trumpet.One school wants to analyse tongues and lips and abdominal muscles and teeth etc etc--the mechanics of playing the trumpet--the other school says don't analyse and disect the process, just play beautiful music. I sometimes ask questions on mechanics to a Dr. Sievers on the Selmer site( he's an Adams student) and I get these koan like answers which never deal with specifics, and which always ends with " strive for a beautiful tone and use lots of air." To be honest its a little frustrating.To be honest the people who say don't analyse are successful old timers, while, as you can see on this site, those who want to talk mechanics are as-yet-to-be- successful trumpet players. Its obvious that relative newcomers are IMPATIENT.(myself included)They want that magic mouthpiece or trumpet or secret tip that will give fast/immediate results.Maybe the art of learning to play the trumpet isn't a right brain process.I still harbor this suspicion that Bugleboy and Dr. Sievers and others like them went through a stage af trying to analyse the mechanics and in some ways they got to be where they are by doing so.

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:11 ]

[_bugleboy]

"As a teacher you need to know how things work. As a player, it can get in your way."

I disagree. A teacher needs to know WHAT makes things work. Even if a teacher knows HOW something is done, I don't see how it follows that they will necessarily know what to do to make it happen. A play on words? Perhaps. I don't think so.

CR

[_bugleboy]

Quadruple C,

Your original statement that I took issue with was,

"There are many schools of thought on this topic as we have seen in all the forum topics. One commonality is forward movement of the front of the tongue in either a rolling motion or lifting motion."

In this statement you assert the existence of many schools that offer different views on and the importance of the tongue. You then go on to assert that forward movement of the tongue is a "commonality" to ALL of these methods. I read this to mean that you are asserting that all methods teach and endorse this type of tongue activity. This just isn't the case with Caruso. You then go on and accuse me of denying the importance of the roll (should it be role) of the tongue,

"Well to deny the importance and roll of the tongue no matter what a player uses for results is denying the laws of physics,"

but this is not the case either. No where in my post did I deny the roll (or the role) of the tongue. Please show me where I did this. If I didn't, then please RETRACT that accusation since it is false and only confuses the real issue of how the Caruso approach might view the function of the tongue.

You go on to say,

"but that's O.K. You guys are certainly free to believe what you like and express it any way you choose, just as I and everyone else is allowed to do the same. Caruso may not have taught this Charly, but the tongue's role is the same no matter what a player practices or teaches. Take away semantics ............ and you have laws of physics, not a religion. Set laws of physics are there and do not change."


(I repeat)

"laws of physics, not a religion. Set laws of physics are there and do not change."

I think it may be time for you to share your laws of physics with us, and how they apply to the tongue. I'm not saying you are wrong here, Quadruple C, just that it is time to substantiate what you are professing. Post the relevant laws of physics as you see them and interpret them.

"Even if we had a fluoroscope study it would not matter because people like yourself will choose to believe what you wish anyway, and that is fine."

This statement is totally uncalled for. You are saying in no uncertain terms that I am closed minded and that I would ignore scientific evidence if it contradicted my philosophy. This is absurd! I have well founded opinions and would demand that any scientific inquiry to the contrary in fact be SCIENTIFIC.

You are correct when you say that things act according to the laws of physics. The big problem here is how these actions are evaluated by humans. If to err is human, history has shown us that scientists have surely been just as human as the rest of us. Coming up with the correct interpretation of the data is the trick. I don't really have anything to prove here. You're the one making all the assertions about the tongue, so maybe it is time to step up to the plate and offer the evidence that will support those assertions.

"You guys just prefer not to give the tongue as much importance, but to dismiss my way of thinking is unfair to myself and others."

Once again, I must ask where I have dismissed your position. In fact, in my post I say,

"The actual resting place of the tongue (in a developed embouchure) and its movement during sound production may have characteristics that are described by the above quote." ("The above quote" of course refers to the statement you made that I have also quoted at the beginning of this post.)

So, did you read this sentence? What other meaning did you derive from it other then the fact that I am agreeing that the tongue may be acting as you say it is? Once again you are flagrantly misrepresenting what I say.

"If someone is truly secure in their belief structure they do not have to make a point of finding fault with others beliefs."

I think it is also true that if someone is secure in their beliefs, they shouldn't be misrepresenting someone else's words and then using those misrepresentations to direct false accusations at that person.

CR

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:11 ]

[PH]

I know that I went through years of studying other methods (Maggio/MacBeth, Sam Krause, Jimmy Maxwell, etc.) analyzing and trying to understand how the body works when good players play. The result was that I was very smart, knowledgable, self-conscious, and a bad player.

When I finally handed myself over to the process and stopped thinking about my body-first with Carmine and then with Adam-I finally learned to play. However, it still took a good bit of time to unlearn the bad physical and mental habits I had acquired in my quest for analytical understanding of how we should play.

This has all made me a better teacher...largely because I now know that it is almost never good to clutter a student's mind with any information about muscles or what the body does.

p.s. Karl S. started studying with Adam at age 19. Even then he had a considerable bit of unlearning to do from 6 or 7 years of inappropriate teaching.

[_bugleboy]

"Well big surprise. There are 2 basic types of people in life. The Antagonist and the Protagonist. Which would you say you are Charly?"

I'm the one who is waiting for a reply to my post.



[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-03-14 11:23 ]