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Trumptrevol Regular Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2020 Posts: 58
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:08 pm Post subject: Switching mouthpieces for C Trumpet |
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Do you like to switch mouthpieces when you switch to C trumpet?
I’m trying to figure out if I should get a custom piece made just for my c(25 throat, 24 backbore).
I play a stock Bach 5C on both Bb and C and I wanted to know if getting those custom adjustments will aid any difference in my playing |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9367 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I tried a mouthpiece with a larger throat and more open backbore on my C trumpet for a while, but I found I played better on my normal mouthpiece. Maybe because that’s what I had been using for years and I was used to it? _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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chrisf3000 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 347 Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | I tried a mouthpiece with a larger throat and more open backbore on my C trumpet for a while, but I found I played better on my normal mouthpiece. Maybe because that’s what I had been using for years and I was used to it? |
I couldn't agree more ! It took me years to come full circle and figure out that my Bb mouthpiece works just fine on my C. I tried every brand I could with a 24 backbore in it. "Maybe this will be the one! It works for everyone else." I finally realized that I didn't need to have it drilled open so far. In fact, opening it up spread the sound and took away all the healthy resistance that I liked. Play what you feel comfortable on and you will be a better trumpet player. |
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AJCarter Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 1280 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:40 am Post subject: |
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chrisf3000 wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | I tried a mouthpiece with a larger throat and more open backbore on my C trumpet for a while, but I found I played better on my normal mouthpiece. Maybe because that’s what I had been using for years and I was used to it? |
I couldn't agree more ! It took me years to come full circle and figure out that my Bb mouthpiece works just fine on my C. I tried every brand I could with a 24 backbore in it. "Maybe this will be the one! It works for everyone else." I finally realized that I didn't need to have it drilled open so far. In fact, opening it up spread the sound and took away all the healthy resistance that I liked. Play what you feel comfortable on and you will be a better trumpet player. |
I definitely can agree with this with one caveat: I think there needs to be a good balance between mouthpiece and horn. If you have a horn that is really open, then you probably don't need to mod the mouthpiece. if you have a tighter blowing horn, then a more open mouthpiece can help that too.
FWIW, I switched to a larger size rim, but backed off the throat to a 26 instead of 24 or larger and found a good backbore that worked as well. Balance is your friend! _________________ (List horns here) |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Start with the 24 (Schilke Schmidt, Curry #2) backbore and open the throat gradually. I use a 5 sided broach, just like the one that Vincent Bach included with his pieces back in the day.
I have a Curry C cup (custom rim) with the #2 backbore. I opened it gradually to #25 and hit the sweet spot there.
I also have the BC model which includes the #2 backbore and larger throat. It is a deeper (B) cup. I would use it for section work. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2333 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I recommend finding the best fit for each trumpet.
My recent experience is having bought a new C trumpet. I went from a 40 year old Bach CL 239 Bell with some other mods, to a new Bach CL 190229 and found I liked a slightly different setup for this instrument vs. the old one.
So, each trumpet and player combination will have a different sweet spot. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I had a neighbor that was the long-time Conn-Selmer rep for the SouthWest US. He recently moved to a retirement community in central Texas but he always claimed, with no qualifiers, the letters following the Bach numbers indicated the pitch of the horn it was cut for, ie: a Bach 3C is made for a 'C' trumpet, the 3B is for a 'Bb' trumpet, etc.
Even-though I bought a few horns from him I never bought into his claim that the letters indicated the horn key. If one of you more knowledgable persons has any idea where this theory may have originated I'd be willing to listen. |
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Dave CCM/SSO Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 145 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
In my experience, the octaves can be a little compressed on C trumpet with a "standard" setup. For me, high C is flat with a 27 throat and bach style #10 backbore. I think it's safe to say that most professional orchestra players play a piece that is a little more open on C trumpet.
My recommendation would be to get your same piece with a 24 backbore. Then, if it feels a little tight or compressed still, open the throat to a 26. You can gradually open the throat until you find what works for you.
This is what works for me and many of my colleagues, obviously other people may have different results.
Good luck! _________________ Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: |
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ECLtmpt2 wrote: | ... If one of you more knowledgable persons has any idea where this theory may have originated I'd be willing to listen. |
-----------------------
That probably came from an old Bach mouthpiece description chart,
see -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/VB42.jpg
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/VB43.jpg
if you want to save a copy of those jpg files, download them now - I'll delete them in a few days.
I don't know what time period those pages are from. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I use Flip Oakes (by Mark Curry) stock "C-trumpet" mouthpieces with my C and D/Eb horns. They have a shorter shank, larger throat, and more open backbore. For me, they help intonation and make the "feel" a little closer to my Bb.
FWIWFM - Don _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9367 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: |
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ECLtmpt2 wrote: | I had a neighbor that was the long-time Conn-Selmer rep for the SouthWest US. He recently moved to a retirement community in central Texas but he always claimed, with no qualifiers, the letters following the Bach numbers indicated the pitch of the horn it was cut for, ie: a Bach 3C is made for a 'C' trumpet, the 3B is for a 'Bb' trumpet, etc.
Even-though I bought a few horns from him I never bought into his claim that the letters indicated the horn key. If one of you more knowledgable persons has any idea where this theory may have originated I'd be willing to listen. |
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 630 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! I cannot imagine to play my alto trombone with a Bach E trumpet mouthpiece that also fits à Piccolo trumpet. Not only the shank does not fit at all, but regarding the sound...Were the alto trombones so different at this time? _________________ S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais) |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:04 am Post subject: |
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An easy way to get an idea if there is a benefit would be to get a Bach 6B and a Bach 6BM on trial. OK - they are a little smaller than the 5C but you could at least see the difference that a larger #26 throat, rather than the #27, and a #24 backbore rather than a #10 makes. (The 6BM is a stock Bach model with #26/24 so no custom work is needed.)
If that ends up being promising, there are then several ways you could go including having a 5C top cut and threaded for backbores and the throat opened. (I think both Pickett and Warburton make specific backbores for C trumpet.) |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | An easy way to get an idea if there is a benefit would be to get a Bach 6B and a Bach 6BM on trial. OK - they are a little smaller than the 5C but you could at least see the difference that a larger #26 throat, rather than the #27, and a #24 backbore rather than a #10 makes. (The 6BM is a stock Bach model with #26/24 so no custom work is needed.)
If that ends up being promising, there are then several ways you could go including having a 5C top cut and threaded for backbores and the throat opened. (I think both Pickett and Warburton make specific backbores for C trumpet.) |
FYI: The 6BM was actually the stock mouthpiece included with new mellophones. |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | An easy way to get an idea if there is a benefit would be to get a Bach 6B and a Bach 6BM on trial. OK - they are a little smaller than the 5C but you could at least see the difference that a larger #26 throat, rather than the #27, and a #24 backbore rather than a #10 makes. (The 6BM is a stock Bach model with #26/24 so no custom work is needed.)
If that ends up being promising, there are then several ways you could go including having a 5C top cut and threaded for backbores and the throat opened. (I think both Pickett and Warburton make specific backbores for C trumpet.) |
Bach B cups come stock with a 7 backbore.
The standard pairings are:
No letter - 10
A cup - 24
B cup - 7
C cup - 10
D cup - 76
E cup - 117
The 6BM is its own design, and as you said, has a 26 throat and 24 backbore.
Curry describes his #2 as a "Schmidt"-style backbore.
In the Bach mpc manual, the 7 is described as a "Schmitt" style backbore, and the 24 as being larger than the 7.
As far as backbores others have mentioned, I'm not so sure the Schilke Schmidt, Curry 2 and Bach 24 are all that similar. I have all three and they they play quite differently even with the same cup (they're threaded), and crude tests such as checking how far something can be inserted into the backbore show vast differences, much less the minute differences more exact testing would show. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: |
Bach B cups come stock with a 7 backbore.
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I stand corrected - I was thinking of the straight 6 I used for a while. The 6BM does make a nice smaller C mouthpiece though. |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jay & Dale. I appreciate the info. I always wondered whether or not that was just another tall tale. |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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My experience with different Bb and C trumpet mouthpieces involves the difference between standard and short-shanked mouthpieces.
My C trumpet feels far more nimble and responsive and plays more easily in tune with short-shank mouthpieces.
I my main Bb mouthpiece and my C trumpet mouthpiece have similar specifications except for the length of the shank (i.e., both 1.5 rim, similar medium cups, same throat size, just different backbores due to long and short shanks).
So, you may want to experiment with different shank lengths to see if you find a benefit. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Coming back to the question of specific „C length“ mouthpieces. I’m perfectly happy with my AR Resonance pieces that I use on both Bb and C, BUT I just discovered last night that Tony at AR came out with C, D, Eb, … backbores.
So: has any of you AR players already tested the C shanks? Opinions, impressions? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Destructo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 174
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Haven't tried them but I doubt Antonio would make them if he didn't think the different lengths were beneficial.[/url] |
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