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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | | ... the sound of air making a shhhhh sound or a sssssss sound or no perceptible sound are all going the same speed? |
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The important issue is whether you are actually maintaining the same air pressure in your oral cavity.
If what is actually happening is that you are maintaining the same amount of air flow (but through different size apertures), then yes the 'speed of the air' through the aperture will change.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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It's all well and good that this works for Mr. Vizzutti. My tongue is definitely too big for this approach.
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Gentlemen... I've been listening to Allen Vizzutti play & also listening to podcasts where he talks about the aspects of playing trumpet. Reading through this post about tongue placement though has me a bit confused. (Doesn't take much)! Is Vizzutti saying that the "BB' between the top of the two top teeth (the "BB" being in the center between the two top teeth where they meet the gum line) is held in place by the tip of the tongue? OR, is he saying that the tip of the tongue is "anchored" to the bottom teeth & as such, the top of the tongue (the part of the tongue just a bit further back from the tip) is against the "BB"? Thanks. |
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | ... Is Vizzutti saying ... |
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who knows? he is describing his feelings about what he thinks is happening in his mouth.
Does he think the physical position of the tongue is the main concern, or what attaining that tongue position (for him) RESULTS in lip and teeth positioning, and air flow.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hello Jay. I believe he is saying the top of the tongue (the part just a bit further back from the tip) is what holds the "BB" in place, & it doesn't matter where the tip is. I'm just experimenting with this to get the maximum velocity from the air flow without "me" increasing my air speed, but rather creating a venturi effect via the tongue. Doing this shouldn't require one to exert themselves any further, but rather have the tongue speed up the air in that position, without you trying to speed up the air by pushing it out of your lungs harder. I guess I was just trying to figure out where the tip goes; or does it matter. Anyone want to weigh in on this? |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | ... I'm just experimenting with this to get the maximum velocity from the air flow without "me" increasing my air speed, but rather creating a venturi effect via the tongue. ... |
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How do you intend to maintain that air velocity BEYOND the venturi constructed by the tongue. The amount of space between the lip aperture and the tongue venturi will affect the air the reaches the lips.
I agree with using the tongue as an important aspect of embouchure and air, but I think it is a mistake to begin with ideas such as venturi, Bernoulli, compression, etc. and to attempt to force the physical actions that result from tongue usage into terms of those ideas.
Have the lips and mouthpiece positioned correctly and blow hard enough to get air flow and vibration. If (and it can) using the tongue helps accomplish that, great.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Yes. Agree 100%. You can maintain it by filling your lungs in a steady manner & utilize the proper compression as you exhale relaxed air at a steady pace. Of course you can increase the velocity depending on what you're playing if it requires it, & do with the tongue what ever works for you. I realize that the tongue position that creates the venturi effect will only work if you have the proper air flow (& enough of it) to sustain the air going past the tongue arch. Of course as you say, you have to have the lips and mouthpiece positioned correctly and blow hard enough to get air flow and vibration. Otherwise tongue position to create faster air won't work, if there isn't a sufficient & steady air stream going through it. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You can maintain it by filling your lungs in a steady manner & utilize the proper compression as you exhale relaxed air at a steady pace. |
What is "proper" compression? Or better yet, what is "compression"?
What is "relaxed" air? |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Proper compression is utilizing your stomach muscles pulling them in as you play to better "push" the air out. Relaxed air is maintaining steady consistent air flow. Check out What Allen Vizzutti, Lynn Nicholson & others have to say about that. Google both terms from a trumpet aspect. And I'm sure there are plenty of posts in this forum about it. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Proper compression is utilizing your stomach muscles pulling them in as you play to better "push" the air out. |
So, those "stomach" muscles aren't "relaxed" after all then?
| Quote: | | Relaxed air is maintaining steady consistent air flow. |
As my lung volume reduces on an extended note or phrase, I use more exhalation effort to maintain the air pressure and dynamic. If I just "relax" I get a reducing air flow and diminishing sound volume. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| You're confusing the terms "relaxed air" & "compression". Read about what Allen Vezzutti, Lynn Nicholson & others have to say about air flow & compression to sustain it. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Some terms have some varied accepted definitions in context.
"Relaxed" can be accepted as mind-state context, as calm and not anxious. But from a muscular effort context "relaxed" is the rest state, repose or no muscular contraction.
In regard to air there is pressure, (what many call "compression") flow, volume etc. I have no idea what "relaxed" air is other than air that is at zero relative pressure and has zero flow. I have never seen an air "relaxometer".
And it appears you are referring to exhalation effort as "compression" which is a popular turn of the phrase among trumpet players.
BTW, the tongue does not "compress" the air if you are playing from lung exhalation effort. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Look at this video by Lynn Nicholson. That's what the term Compression means as it relates to faster air, & not necessarily more air. You're probably doing this without even realizing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fviXbWYvaZc |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You're probably doing this without even realizing it. |
If I am playing a loud high note, I am doing that. (Along with intercostal involvement) And I do realize it.
I also agree with his approach of rim-to-rim lip pulsation involvement for full power tones. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| I thought so. You had to be doing that to play well above the staff. And that's exactly what I was talking about in these posts. They use the term (or word) "compression" to describe it. True that these are not my original ideas. I'm just a comeback player trying to understand the most efficient way to play better. The term compression can have a dozen definitions dependent on the subject matter. But for us (for trumpet), that's what it means. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:40 am Post subject: |
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How about 'to compress??"?
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| To compress or not to compress? Said "Hamlet?? |
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Mike Prestage
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | Is Vizzutti saying that the "BB' between the top of the two top teeth (the "BB" being in the center between the two top teeth where they meet the gum line) is held in place by the tip of the tongue? OR, is he saying that the tip of the tongue is "anchored" to the bottom teeth & as such, the top of the tongue (the part of the tongue just a bit further back from the tip) is against the "BB"? Thanks. |
From the Vizzutti quotatation at the start of this thread: 'The ball is held in place by your tongue, back from the tip so that the front of the tongue is touching the back of the front teeth. The contact point of the ball on the tongue can vary.'
As I read it, this is quite explicitly talking about a point on the top of the tongue, behind the tip. I have some thoughts on what this might actually be about but tbh they're unlikely to lead to any productive forum discussion! If you're interested for whatever it might be worth, let me know and I'll drop you a PM.
Mike
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hello Mike. I'm good with it now. Thanks though. |
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Destructo
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: |
I also agree with his approach of rim-to-rim lip pulsation involvement for full power tones. |
If you don't mind me asking, which of the following is the correct way to think of changing pitch on the instrument:
1. The apeture size gets smaller as the pitch gets higher. For example, in the way one produces a higher pitch on a string instrument by creating a shorter string length (by stopping the string with the finger).
2. By increasing the elastic tension of the apeture in some fashion.
This might be equivalent to the way on a guitar or violin, the high E string is under greater tension. [People usually think this mean 'smiling' or stretching the lips, but can also be accomplished by gripping the lips against the teeth edges or rolling the lips in, which makes the vibrating tissue more taut without drawing the corners back. I.e the lip tissue will swing open and closed more quickly because the tension is greater, rather than because the width of the vibrating tissue is smaller]
What Lynn Nicholson talks about and what you seem to have alluded to by saying you think of keeping the lips vibrating all the way across the mouthpiece, would seem to suggest that thinking of playing higher as a matter of reducing the size of the apeture is not an optimal way of thinking about it.
If you have an alternative or better way of thinking about it, please do share if you don't mind! |
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