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cody_musial
New Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2023
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Modern Horn for Swing Era Lead Playing |
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| jeirvine wrote: | | cody_musial wrote: | Hi,
I am currently looking for a new horn for lead playing for swing era music, Benny Goodman, Gene Krupa etc. I enjoy the small bore of the Conn 22B that that I currently play and the bright sound of it. Any recommendations for a bright small bore modern horn would be appreciated. |
Are you looking for new because your Conn 22B is worn out? It would be much cheaper to just get a valve job than it would be to buy any new trumpet of comparable quality. |
The valves are in good condition. It has several dents from the previous owner that my local repair shop didn't fix because the horn had been refinished before and they said the brass may be too thin. I was able to find a set of new valve corks online so I can replace those. The big issue with the horn is the finish is worn and makes my hands smell for hours after playing it. I have considered using some polish then just putting a layer of lacquer on it my self or having a shop do it.
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Cody Musial
1947 Conn 22b
1956 Getzen Super Deluxe
1963 Olds Super
1978 Getzen Capri |
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DickieG64
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Weehawken, New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Tony Scodwell Las Vegas model, Schilke B3
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Chicago Benge Large bore 1947
Monette B993
Taylor Flugelhorn
Kanstul -Charlie Davis pic prototype never produced
Conn 80A Cornet
Taylor Flugle Horn
Kanstul-Charlie Davis Prototype Piccolo-never produced
1946 Conn 80A cornet |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1928
Location: WI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Modern Horn for Swing Era Lead Playing |
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| cody_musial wrote: | | It has several dents from the previous owner that my local repair shop didn't fix because the horn had been refinished before and they said the brass may be too thin. |
That sounds a little strange, unless the local shop thought that the original finish had been buffed off rather than chemically stripped. Does the engraving on your horn look faint and indistinct? If not, I'd get a second opinion, perhaps from one of the nationally-known techs (I'm thinking Charlie Melk, Josh Landress, Rich Ita, etc.). Of course, if they were to do a dent and lacquer job for you, it might take them months to turn it around.
Those old 22B's are pretty special. I have a 22B Symphony Special (restored by Charlie Melk) that's very nice.
There are a lot of 22B's on eBay right now. Maybe you could buy one that's from the same era as yours and then have both restored in turn. If that model really works for you, it would pay to have two for backup.
One other thought -- Callet Sima. It's a small bore horn that Jerome Callet designed following the pattern of the classic smaller bore Conns and Kings (I think I read that somewhere at the time the Sima was announced).
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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cody_musial
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Joined: 21 Apr 2023
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Modern Horn for Swing Era Lead Playing |
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The engraving on the bell is quite faint. I think whoever refinished the horn did buff off the finish instead of chemically strip it. I do agree there is definitely something special about those old 22Bs and I did always fancy a symphony special. I'll do some looking around.
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Cody Musial
1947 Conn 22b
1956 Getzen Super Deluxe
1963 Olds Super
1978 Getzen Capri |
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1474
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Harry James, Ziggy Elman and I used the same kind of horn for lead  ; King Super 20 Symphony DB so this horn is an obvious recommendation. However they are old now and amongst the many horns I´ve tested one stood out with a sound quite close to the King: van Laar B5..
https://www.vanlaartrumpets.nl/en/trumpets/b5
Doesn´t guarantee that you sound like us but it is a very fine horn, obvious core ,warm round sound.
You may push it really hard without it ever sounding shrill. Instead brilliant, sparkling.
As an amateur I used the King in a swingband, swing era crew/mostly original scores 1970-1980s.
Today, still lead, I play a Yamaha 6335RC -with a very different tonal quality very well suited to modern big band sound.
The difference, at least according to my ears, is the more pronunced core, darker, rounder sound with the King and van LAAR B5. A "heavier" output. Trumpet sections during the swing era, from my point of view, more often carried the melody compared to the sections of today. Hence a more "singing" style???
How you play your horn is extremely important with regards to the sound.
Everyone may have his/her own voice.
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:17 am Post subject: |
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OP, you realise that swing phrasing and articulation trump equipment, right?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TJTS
Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2023
Posts: 85
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:20 am Post subject: |
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So many good options out there for you!
When I play a modern horn I use an 8310ZII quite often for Big Band lead and combined with a Patrick 84S it is a really good match. Nice and bright but still a good amount of core. Excellent for Ellington, Dorsey, Glenn Miller, etc... The commercial backbore really allows the 8310Z to open up. Many people think they blow tight, I don't think that at all. You have to remember many parts of the horn are large or extra large bore - it is just the valve block that is .445.
The Ingram 1600i is also a great option and plays more conventional since it isn't a step bore horn. Still some nice efficiency to last those 3 to 4 hour gigs. This is a surprisingly heavy horn! Find the early ones with the flower engraving - they are super special.
I also really dig a Lightweight Bach 37 for this purpose. It has all sorts of sizzle in the sound and has really great response.
The Schilke models I like the most are the B5 and B6. Great projection and both have great efficiency.
Technique is so important though - listen and study to the recordings. Luckily everything is up on YouTube so you can easily practice along to match the phrasing, articulation, and sound of those tunes.
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Michael | Owner
www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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Aaronis
Regular Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 87
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| TJTS wrote: | So many good options out there for you!
When I play a modern horn I use an 8310ZII quite often for Big Band lead and combined with a Patrick 84S it is a really good match. Nice and bright but still a good amount of core. Excellent for Ellington, Dorsey, Glenn Miller, etc... The commercial backbore really allows the 8310Z to open up. Many people think they blow tight, I don't think that at all. You have to remember many parts of the horn are large or extra large bore - it is just the valve block that is .445.
The Ingram 1600i is also a great option and plays more conventional since it isn't a step bore horn. Still some nice efficiency to last those 3 to 4 hour gigs. This is a surprisingly heavy horn! Find the early ones with the flower engraving - they are super special.
I also really dig a Lightweight Bach 37 for this purpose. It has all sorts of sizzle in the sound and has really great response.
The Schilke models I like the most are the B5 and B6. Great projection and both have great efficiency.
Technique is so important though - listen and study to the recordings. Luckily everything is up on YouTube so you can easily practice along to match the phrasing, articulation, and sound of those tunes. |
Hey Michael,
I'm curious on the Shew Z horn how do you know that it's only the valve block that is .445 bore? I have never heard that nor seen it advertised as that referencing just the valve block. To my knowledge and experience the bore size typically resembles the lead pipe through the end of the tuning slide before it enters the valve block. Just curious if you know something I don't. Thanks.
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2018 Schilke B6
1980's CG Selmer
1976 CG L.A. Benge
1955 Mt. Vernon Bach
1947 Olds Super
Holton Revelation Model 48
1964 Holton Galaxy Cornet |
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TJTS
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Joined: 06 Jan 2023
Posts: 85
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Bottom leg of the tuning slide is quite large going into the valve block. And the bell tail is also larger with a large throat / flare. A true step bore design made oh so famous by Schilke (even though there were many step bore horns before)
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Michael | Owner
www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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falado
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Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Eastern NC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, back when I played lead in some military big bands I used a Benge 6X. It did the job extremely well, provided you’re in shape. The bands were acoustic and when I needed to push the sound at volume it was there and didn’t back up like I experienced with the medium bore horns. I also later had success with the “proficient” horns such as the Stomvi (Reeves) V~Raptor. I currently use a Thane Performance 72 bell and it’s a great horn.
Dave
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FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
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RussellDDixon
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Joined: 04 Apr 2014
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Location: Mason, OH
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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A trumpet you enjoy playing ... it's the Player not the equipment.
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Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece |
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bach_again
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Should be very interesting if mr Scodwell were to step in and entertain us with his views on the subject!
Lots to be discussed; sound, that special phrasing, way of playing and type of horn.
Please chime in!
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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