Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9057 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
Mike Sailors wrote:
Trumpetstud wrote:
Anyway, how horrible am I?
You are the worst.
Yes you are And you can bypass Pops, too. Everyone knows that it was Sydney Bechet, King Oliver and Buddy Bolden who were the true progenitors of Jass, anyway. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell? No.
Trumpetstud wrote:
If I don't really care to listen to Louis Armstrong am I going to Jazz Hell? I really like more contemporary jazz. Terrell Stafford, Terance Blanchard, Wynton Marsalis. I like Miles' music but I don't really care for the Fusion stuff.I like Dizzy but I don't ever see myself being able to play BeBop (fast)!
Anyway, how horrible am I?
Jazz hell should describe an afterlife without any jazz.
In any case, when you're listening for pleasure, don't feel like you have to listen to Louis Armstrong and like it just because somebody else says you have to listen to him and like it.
OTOH, when you're listening to learn, you may want to consider "Pops" and all his famous contemporaries from the era when their style was a big part of what was considered trendy popular music. Especially Armstrong. He had a way of turning phrases and putting together solos that few ever matched, even in later sub-styles of jazz. The opening cadenza in West End Blues is something we all should hear at least once when learning about how to play jazz. Studying Armstrong's scat singing is as equally helpful as studying his trumpet solos.
A very rough analogy may be approaching William Shakespeare when learning to appreciate English literature. No one speaks like that anymore, or writes like that, but "The Bard" had a way of turning a phrase and telling a story that is worth analyzing. I don't know too many people who will sit down and read his plays or even his poetry for sheer pleasure. But nearly everybody who attended school in an English-speaking country had to take the time to scrutinize passages from Hamlet or analyze rhyme schemes from Shakespeare's sonnets. "To be or not to be." "My mistresses eyes are nothing like the sun....."
I couldn't stand reading Shakespeare. I always loved to read though. Am I going to literature hell? The only literature hell I can think of is a place where I can never read any books. _________________ Enjoy the journey.
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
kehaulani wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:
Trumpetstud wrote:
Anyway, how horrible am I?
You are the worst.
Yes you are And you can bypass Pops, too. Everyone knows that it was Sydney Bechet, King Oliver and Buddy Bolden who were the true progenitors of Jass, anyway.
Jass. You didn't think we were going to miss that, did you? Wow Kehaulani, you really are old. _________________ Enjoy the journey.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9057 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
Didymus wrote:
Jass. You didn't think we were going to miss that, did you? Wow Kehaulani, you really are old.
When God said, "Let there be light", who do you think flipped the switch? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Joined: 05 Apr 2023 Posts: 29 Location: Athens, GA
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
Trumpetstud wrote:
If I don't really care to listen to Louis Armstrong am I going to Jazz Hell? I really like more contemporary jazz. Terrell Stafford, Terance Blanchard, Wynton Marsalis. I like Miles' music but I don't really care for the Fusion stuff.I like Dizzy but I don't ever see myself being able to play BeBop (fast)!
Anyway, how horrible am I?
I think I’d end up there with you… Not always my cup of tea, yet still a great player! _________________ “Words make you think thoughts. Music makes you feel feelings. Songs make you feel thoughts.”
-Yip Harburg
Well ... isn't it required for a soul in purgatory to have those still here on Earth (and alive) pray for his / her soul to be "elevated to Heaven" through prayer, specifically FOR that soul "stuck" in purgatory?
(Am not exactly sure how that [?] works ... and, I was once being "groomed" for the Seminary by Jesuits) _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Last edited by Man Of Constant Sorrow on Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
kehaulani wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:
Trumpetstud wrote:
Anyway, how horrible am I?
You are the worst.
Yes you are And you can bypass Pops, too. Everyone knows that it was Sydney Bechet, King Oliver and Buddy Bolden who were the true progenitors of Jass, anyway.
You are correct, my son. _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
I liked Harry James and Ray Anthony, Bix Beiderbecke. But it was listening to Pops' St. James Infirmary late one night when I was supposed to be sleeping, that made my blood curl. And I really appreciated just how deep jazz could be.
Preferences? Bix more than Pops. Chet more that Wynton. Coltrane more than Getz. So what? You can learn a great deal from each of them.
I'm guessing you either meant blood curdle or toes curl. They have opposite meanings though, so I'm not sure whether you loved St James Infirmary or hated it haha
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9057 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:33 pm Post subject:
Blood curdle.
Or as we say in Hawai`i, "Get chicken skin". _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
Trumpetstud wrote:
If I don't really care to listen to Louis Armstrong am I going to Jazz Hell? I really like more contemporary jazz. Terrell Stafford, Terance Blanchard, Wynton Marsalis. I like Miles' music but I don't really care for the Fusion stuff.I like Dizzy but I don't ever see myself being able to play BeBop (fast)!
Anyway, how horrible am I?
Straight ahead to hell. How horrible? Nope not horrible but missing out on opportunities to learn. History is there in order to be learned from.
And if not Louis´s sound, what about his phrasing!!!! And:
" his immensely compelling swing; his brilliant technique; his sophisticated, daring sense of harmony; his ever-mobile, expressive attack, timbre, and inflections; his gift for creating vital melodies; his dramatic, often complex sense of solo design; and his outsized musical energy and genius made these recordings major innovations in jazz".
( https://www.britannica.com/biography/Louis-Armstrong )
On the other hand: your taste is your taste and should be protected by the constitution!!!
One man´s taste is the other one´s waste! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:17 am Post subject:
Full disclosure,...I don't revere Miles. *ducks for cover* _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Am I going to Jazz Hell?
Trumpetstud wrote:
If I don't really care to listen to Louis Armstrong am I going to Jazz Hell? I really like more contemporary jazz. Terrell Stafford, Terance Blanchard, Wynton Marsalis. I like Miles' music but I don't really care for the Fusion stuff.I like Dizzy but I don't ever see myself being able to play BeBop (fast)!
Anyway, how horrible am I?
You can't help how you perceive something. I've shown what I consider to be great pop recordings of earlier eras to younger people to see how they strike someone used to current pop trends - they generally have an "eh" reaction to songs I think are fantastic - for example: American Pie, Maggie Mae, Fire And Rain, Saturday In The Park, Mandy, I Feel The Earth Move, Annie's Song. Strongly melodic tunes like that often don't seem to resonate with younger ears.
I like listening to Louis and if the bio I've always heard about him is correct it's pretty amazing that he reached the prominence he did given the realities of his early life.
That being said I think he's a bit over-hyped by jazz aficionados. Wynton's genuflection in "Ken Burns' Jazz" becomes comical. Louis was great, his style while unique for the time didn't really evolve much past where it was in his early adulthood. I regard it as silly to give him credit for all of Western music's evolution.
You mention Dizzy - as I understand it there was friction between Dizzy and Louis. Dizzy at one point apparently was vocal about not being a fan of Louis' style and Louis didn't care for later jazz styles. Later Dizzy amended his position, said that he owed a debt to Louis. Not sure whether it was more for social/political reasons or if Dizzy genuinely believed it.
An interesting event is what I believe to be the one time that Louis and Dizzy performed together. They come from different parts of the jazz universe but to my ear it's fantastic. I'm sorry they didn't do an album together, I don't know if anything like that was ever considered.
I seem to recall reading that, according to the major critics and musicologists who have a jazz focus, Louis Armstrong brought jazz further along its evolutionary path than anyone.
Anyone.
If he didn't know about this while he was alive, I hope he knows it now from on high in jazz heaven.
_________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
If one is a music hobbyist, then not liking or studying the music of such foundational players as Satchmo or Miles is your prerogative but if you are a serious student of jazz improv and a pro player then you are only doing yourself a disservice by not studying or being aware of the importance of their body of work. The work of both artists are foundationally important to not only the history of the music, but also how improvisation applies to current music/genres.
As for having such a staunch blanket opposition the the entire genre of rap, I would counter that it's a pretty wide genre with many directions-like any style there's some good and some not so good. There are many rap/hip hop artists are are doing very creative and musical work. It's a 50 year old genre and has included some artists as Branford Marsalis, Maya Angelou, Kenny Garrett etc. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
There are many rap/hip hop artists are are doing very creative and musical work. It's a 50 year old genre and has included some artists as Branford Marsalis, Maya Angelou, Kenny Garrett etc.
Not to mention Humpty Hump, a personal favorite (RIP, Humpty). _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
There are many rap/hip hop artists are are doing very creative and musical work. It's a 50 year old genre and has included some artists as Branford Marsalis, Maya Angelou, Kenny Garrett etc.
Not to mention Humpty Hump, a personal favorite (RIP, Humpty).
I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom, and I like my oatmeal lumpy.
Not a rap song, Seven Minutes of Funk has been sampled dozens of times by rap artists big and small. That's me, second from the right. (Click on the link to see me!) Yes, I like some rap, and I like Varese and Freddie Hubbard. I don't like the banjo.
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Tiny Tim doing background vocals (with "Miss Vicky" cheering him on).
