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Chris OHara Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 169 Location: Chicago, IL
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:49 am Post subject: |
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From your intro:
Buzzing: All sound on any brass instrument begins as a buzz, and our mouthpieces are our primary instruments. The (admittedly simplified) relationship between mouthpiece and trumpet is similar to that of an electric guitar and amplifier.
This is simply false. The mouthpiece is not the primary instrument. And the trumpet is not an "amplifier". Mouthpiece buzzing is a sure path to inefficient playing and an inferior sound. |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4181
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:23 am Post subject: |
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1. Place the mouthpiece on your lips
2. Blow gently
3. Bring the instrument in place while blowing
4. You have sound. No buzzing involved. |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I know Chris. He and I have performed together in the past including the Vivaldi on piccolo trumpets and have sat together in a top professional adult band.
Chris is an outstanding trumpet player and teacher and makes his living in music. He has real credentials.
For ANYONE to come here and dispute his teaching method shows very little class and you are potentially taking money from him he needs to raise his family.
There are some top players who advocate mouthpiece buzzing. Jim Thompson, Adolph Herseth did, and Fernando Dissenha, the principal trumpet in the Sao Paolo Symphony. Some top pros/teachers do not.
R. Tomasek |
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Chris OHara Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 169 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:05 am Post subject: |
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I'll take Herseth's inefficiency and inferior sound any day... You do you!
All of the exercises in the book (with very few exceptions) are designed to be done on the mouthpiece or on the trumpet. If you don't like doing mouthpiece playing, that's fine - it works great for me and my students - apply the exercises on the trumpet and you'll do well, too!
I know the "controversy" on buzzing, but it doesn't change the value of the book, the scale exercises, the method for learning music, etc. Buy the book and see for yourself!
Happy Trumpeting! _________________ Christopher J. O'Hara, DMA
Bach/Conn-Selmer Performing Artist
Denis Wick Performing Artist
www.chrisjohara.com
www.alliancebrass.com |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I have seen buzzing hamper the results of far too many young players. I am not afraid to write the truth and I will not be silenced or intimidated.
Quote: | I'll take Herseth's inefficiency and inferior sound any day.. |
Straw-man argument. He didn't play as if buzzing. Most players do not understand the distinction.
Buzzing is forced tone.
oxleyk wrote: Quote: | 1. Place the mouthpiece on your lips
2. Blow gently
3. Bring the instrument in place while blowing
4. You have sound. No buzzing involved |
Absolutely correct.
And to add to it, Buzz the mp and without changing anything insert it into the instrument. Do you really want to sound like that?
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5705 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:40 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | From your intro:
Buzzing: All sound on any brass instrument begins as a buzz, and our mouthpieces are our primary instruments. The (admittedly simplified) relationship between mouthpiece and trumpet is similar to that of an electric guitar and amplifier.
This is simply false. The mouthpiece is not the primary instrument. And the trumpet is not an "amplifier". Mouthpiece buzzing is a sure path to inefficient playing and an inferior sound. |
You have to just love a forum like this. The VERY FIRST POST in response to the thread starter is to criticize and say that the OP is wrong.
Meanwhile the OP has a pretty impressive record as a performing trumpet player and educator of other trumpet players. I mean, it took me about 20 seconds to find some YouTube videos of Chris O'Hara playing some stunningly wonderful trumpet. Clearly he knows a thing or two about what he's talking about.
Chris, thanks for posting that link - from reading the description, I think it's going to be a solid addition to the craft of learning to wrangle this hunk of brass. I'll have to look into it! _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:57 am Post subject: |
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I never said Chris was a poor player. Stop reacting as if I did.
Just stop with the fake physics. And give something original. Geeze the brass world is a fish bowl / echo chamber of the same recycled nonsense.
Oh. If you're here to sell something buy an ad. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1811 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: |
For ANYONE to come here and dispute his teaching method shows very little class and you are potentially taking money from him he needs to raise his family. |
I'm sure you mean well, but this is ridiculous. TH is a discussion forum. It's not like kalijah is putting up billboards saying Chris O'Hara is a bad trumpet player or teacher - he's just disagreeing with a particular teaching point, and saying why. You can agree with him or not, but that's a 100% valid use of the forum. Let's exercise a bit more restraint with the "you're taking food of out his kids' mouths by saying you don't agree!" business. |
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Quadstriker Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2021 Posts: 123
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that was a bit of a stretch. It's a public forum. You're allowed to politely disagree. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5705 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:23 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | I never said Chris was a poor player. Stop reacting as if I did.
Just stop with the fake physics. And give something original. Geeze the brass world is a fish bowl / echo chamber of the same recycled nonsense.
Oh. If you're here to sell something buy an ad. |
Here's the thing though - who are you exactly to dispute what Chris teaches as being "simply false?"
There are A LOT of professional trumpet players and teachers who advocate mouthpiece buzzing. Bud Herseth - the gold standard of what an orchestral trumpet player should be - was an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing.
Not only that, but you've basically called out someone who has earned a Doctorate degree in trumpet with multiple artist endorsements, and has an enviable performance resume. You can't get those things without knowing what you are doing and what you're talking about when it comes to playing this instrument.
You post here anonymously under the screen name "kalijah" - that's all we know about you. You could be some practice room hero "try hard" whose breadth of performance experience is playing for your church or in a community concert band. We don't know though because you post anonymously, and I suppose that's fine, but if you're going to call out a known player who has some serious real credentials, both academic and performance, you should at least put your real name on your assertions along with some sort of backing for why you personally feel that way.
At least that's how I see it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:55 am Post subject: |
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This once decent website has turned into a big pile of road apples.
I've spent nearly 20 years here and I can no longer tolerate it.
Ever wonder why so few real pros post here any more?
Just read the drivel here.
Signing off.
R. Tomasek |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5705 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | This once decent website has turned into a big pile of road apples.
I've spent nearly 20 years here and I can no longer tolerate it.
Ever wonder why so few real pros post here any more?
Just read the drivel here.
Signing off.
R. Tomasek |
I hope my post above isn't one you refer to as drivel. I've always tried to post from a position of things I've personally experienced, and I don't hide behind anonymity - I use my name, I've posted examples of my playing, and anyone who does any kind of Google-fu can find me without too much effort. I've never proclaimed to be a great player - just a player who is good enough to go out and gig regularly in the region where I live.
I do agree though that there are some folks who make everyone's experience on this board less than pleasurable, and trumpet players tend to have strong opinions and strong personalities. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3367 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:33 am Post subject: |
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I think the troublesome part of the value and purpose of buzzing comes from a misunderstanding of how the lips need to perform during actual playing.
This is an excerpt from -
http://www.artofsoundmusic.com/brass/trumpet/solo-trumpet/trumpet-and-the-rule-of-three-complete-method
"The same is true of the mouthpiece. Without the trumpet, the sound is softer and not the polished sound we aspire to, but we are still able to play the same music. The better and clearer that we are able to play on the mouthpiece, the better and more accurate our trumpet playing will become"
Taken 'as written' it implies that the route to good trumpet playing is achieved by developing good 'mouthpiece playing' (of all the written music?). I do not know if that concept is used throughout the method.
It might all come down to what the method really entails, and how it is described.
If nothing else, this discussion seems to hinge on a critical reading and interpretation of info on that website.
edit: is the method book designed so that it can be used 'standalone' without the need of an active teacher as a guide for understanding and evaluation? What does the actual BOOK say or instruct about mouthpiece buzzing?
Is buzzing promoted as being the 'best way', or as being more useful than playing the entire instrument? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2090 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:47 am Post subject: |
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I get why well-intended but inaccurate discussions of physics in a trumpet method would get some folks spun up.
Having said that, many, though clearly not all players, have found mouthpiece buzzing to be a useful tool. Inaccurate descriptions of the underlying mechanics from many teachers and many books have not diminished their utility for those players. It would be great for the descriptions to be accurate, but it doesn't appear to be harmful to the well-being of those trumpet players (unless they are preparing for their Classical Mechanics midterm).
I found a lot of useful text and exercises in this excellent method. If you aren't into mouthpiece buzzing, the entire Buzzing section can be played on the trumpet, and offers some fun and highly useful challenges either way.
O'Hara dedicates a significant portion of the book to exercises intended to help students master challenging excerpts from solo and orchestral literature. He breaks down entire Arban's Characteristic Studies to help students understand how to practice them for success. I find that approach to be hugely useful. Rob Roy McGregor has some terrific books dedicated to that same purpose.
Again, I get the concern over accuracy in describing the mechanics of trumpet playing, and over buzzing (to a much lesser extent), but there is a wealth of helpful information and useful exercises in this method. For me, it is money well spent. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | who are you exactly to dispute what Chris teaches as being "simply false? |
Very specifically, what I refer to as "false", is this statement:
and our mouthpieces are our primary instruments. The (admittedly simplified) relationship between mouthpiece and trumpet is similar to that of an electric guitar and amplifier.
And it IS indeed false. Do any of you ACTAULLY believe that to be true? Or do you not dare question it? Honestly?
It is one thing to say "I like buzzing and it seems to help me and my students". How is that not enough?
Why must one attempt to justify it with a profound (but false) example that is misleading?
It is like the tongue-arching advice, it seems to always be accompanied by some quasi-technical "airspeed" or "oral resonance" cursory explanation. Simply encouraging the action is never enough, is it? It must be ENFORCED with a profound and scientific justification.
So, tell us Chris, EXACTLY how does a trumpet and mouthpiece compare to a guitar and amplifier?
Let's discuss the resonance modes of the mouthpiece alone, vs a full instrument, shall we?
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Oh BTW. Practicing scales is good. Good advice there. So does agreeing restore my reputation as a player trickg? ( not that I made any claims in that regard) Lord knows I don't want to be relegated to "practice room hero "try hard" whose breadth of performance experience is playing for your church or in a community concert band." |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:06 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | who are you exactly to dispute what Chris teaches as being "simply false? |
Very specifically, what I refer to as "false", is this statement:
and our mouthpieces are our primary instruments. The (admittedly simplified) relationship between mouthpiece and trumpet is similar to that of an electric guitar and amplifier.
And it IS indeed false. Do any of you ACTAULLY believe that to be true? Or do you not dare question it? Honestly?
It is one thing to say "I like buzzing and it seems to help me and my students". How is that not enough?
Why must one attempt to justify it with a profound (but false) example that is misleading?
It is like the tongue-arching advice, it seems to always be accompanied by some quasi-technical "airspeed" or "oral resonance" cursory explanation. Simply encouraging the action is never enough, is it? It must be ENFORCED with a profound and scientific justification.
So, tell us Chris, EXACTLY how does a trumpet and mouthpiece compare to a guitar and amplifier?
Let's discuss the resonance modes of the mouthpiece alone, vs a full instrument, shall we? |
Do you realize that you have failed to answer the question you quoted? _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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wohlrab Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2015 Posts: 133 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:07 am Post subject: |
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You guys are so silly sometimes |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1811 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:41 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: |
There are A LOT of professional trumpet players and teachers who advocate mouthpiece buzzing. Bud Herseth - the gold standard of what an orchestral trumpet player should be - was an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing. |
This is true, but it's equally true that there are also lots and lots of highly accomplished players and teachers who are against it. For starters, the Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, and Bill Adam schools don't agree with each other about much, but they're all against mouthpiece playing. Let's be honest here - there are highly accomplished players who've taken strong stances for and also against pretty much every conceivable approach and practice technique, so just saying "so and so did it, and they're pretty good" really doesn't mean much.
trickg wrote: |
You post here anonymously under the screen name "kalijah" - that's all we know about you. You could be some practice room hero "try hard" whose breadth of performance experience is playing for your church or in a community concert band. We don't know though because you post anonymously, and I suppose that's fine, but if you're going to call out a known player who has some serious real credentials, both academic and performance, you should at least put your real name on your assertions along with some sort of backing for why you personally feel that way.
At least that's how I see it. |
Actually, I can see why it would look this way, but kalijah has in fact done all the things you're asking for here at various points in his posting history, and people still responded to his posts the exact same way. He's shared his name, links to some youtube videos he's prepared, and, if I remember correctly, links to bands he's played with, as well as extensively and repeatedly explaining his reasons behind his views, and providing the science that backs it up. People still basically said, "player/teacher X is better than you, so how dare you disagree!" I don't entirely agree with everything he says, but I think his fundamental point here that you can go badly wrong by trying to make the trumpet feel like playing the mouthpiece or lip buzzing is reasonable, and I bet there are a fair number of people who quietly share the same experience, but hesitate to talk about it for fear of being shouted down by a mob of people doing exactly the things we've seen in this thread. Could he be more conciliatory in disagreement? Probably, but there are lots of people here who that's also true of who don't A: attract anything like the same vitriol, or B: bring much new information to the discussion, which kalijah definitely has, at least for me. |
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