| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:13 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| bgosvig wrote: | | yourbrass wrote: | .456" is a new bore size for Bach, as far as I know. It's dead center between M and ML. Their description of the bell is interesting as well. I t seems as if they are seeking to reproduce the bell of the early 50's that Bach was making.
I have a Bach from that era, with the type of bell described. It plays great, and I'm in the process of tweaking it in restoration.
Please post if you get the horn and your impressions. |
Yes, there's nothing new under the sun. Bach is clearly rolling out a broad array of new 190 horns based upon the design and construction techniques of yesteryear. It makes sense. Those Mt. Vernon Bach's in good condition command big dollars on eBay. The value of what Vincent Bach created in those days endures.
Some may feel this corporate stroll down memory lane is a cynical money grab, which it surly is. |
I rather doubt they're making a ton of money in trying to duplicate old designs. That will come when they sell a lot of them.
But my old NY 37 plays much differently than the many newer 37's I've played after working on them. The gauge of the metal is thinner, the bell bead is flat, i.e., "French." The seam is probably in a different place too. So it's not surprising that the tone quality is different.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yourbrass wrote: | | bgosvig wrote: | | yourbrass wrote: | .456" is a new bore size for Bach, as far as I know. It's dead center between M and ML. Their description of the bell is interesting as well. I t seems as if they are seeking to reproduce the bell of the early 50's that Bach was making.
I have a Bach from that era, with the type of bell described. It plays great, and I'm in the process of tweaking it in restoration.
Please post if you get the horn and your impressions. |
Yes, there's nothing new under the sun. Bach is clearly rolling out a broad array of new 190 horns based upon the design and construction techniques of yesteryear. It makes sense. Those Mt. Vernon Bach's in good condition command big dollars on eBay. The value of what Vincent Bach created in those days endures.
Some may feel this corporate stroll down memory lane is a cynical money grab, which it surly is. |
I rather doubt they're making a ton of money in trying to duplicate old designs. That will come when they sell a lot of them.
But my old NY 37 plays much differently than the many newer 37's I've played after working on them. The gauge of the metal is thinner, the bell bead is flat, i.e., "French." The seam is probably in a different place too. So it's not surprising that the tone quality is different. |
Several of the newer Bach have the thinner .020 vs the thicker .025 bells.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
njt
Regular Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Location: New Hampshire
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I’m ready to give the 190m37x “a go” when they become more widely available and user comments from everyday players start to appear. I hope they have “the sound” along with excellent construction, efficiency and playability. For now it looks like there may be a few more months of waiting. Sigh ……… OP I’ll certainly post a review when I have the opportunity to spend some time with one!
_________________
Bach 50th Anniversary 19037 S
Reeves mouthpieces
-Nicholas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2441
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
What is interesting here is the lack of "I have played it and" responses. This was the horn that was designed to be an improvement on one of the most respected Bachs of all time, the late NY 37M. Among the Bach "experts" and "super-fans" the older horn had a reputation second to none. I had high hopes for this new variant.
I noted elsewhere in this thread, the claim that this is returning to the past. No, these are new designs. Sure, they are leveraging some of the semi-forgotten wisdom of the Vincent years, but these are new designs for the present day, not just retro imitations.
That being said, the response thus far has been surprising (in the lack of). The star of the show appears, based on all of the positive comment online as well as what I have heard privately, to be the new Apollo. One may only presume based on name, 170 numbering, and price, that this was meant to be the "discount" horn. But those who have played it seem to come away exceptionally impressed with what is in no way a throw-back, but a modern horn that on the surface appears to be non-Vincent in nature, but I suspect based on all of the feedback, the master would have been quite happy with.
That the "bottom of the line" is receiving so much more positive chatter than the subject of this thread, arguably the flagship, horn, is a remarkable and unexpected twist.
And I am left yearning to get my hands on an Apollo.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9033
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | What is interesting here is the lack of "I have played it and" responses. This was the horn that was designed to be an improvement on one of the most respected Bachs of all time, the late NY 37M. Among the Bach "experts" and "super-fans" the older horn had a reputation second to none. I had high hopes for this new variant. |
Well, I can't speak for others, but if I want to try out a horn, I have to buy it and have it sent to me. I do that, but it gets exorbitant, and one can only do it so often.
So, if you've maxed out on buying horns for the time being, you're not about to buy the next hottest thing on the market. This is a reflection of your own condition not the horn.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | What is interesting here is the lack of "I have played it and" responses. This was the horn that was designed to be an improvement on one of the most respected Bachs of all time, the late NY 37M. Among the Bach "experts" and "super-fans" the older horn had a reputation second to none. I had high hopes for this new variant.
I noted elsewhere in this thread, the claim that this is returning to the past. No, these are new designs. Sure, they are leveraging some of the semi-forgotten wisdom of the Vincent years, but these are new designs for the present day, not just retro imitations.
That being said, the response thus far has been surprising (in the lack of). The star of the show appears, based on all of the positive comment online as well as what I have heard privately, to be the new Apollo. One may only presume based on name, 170 numbering, and price, that this was meant to be the "discount" horn. But those who have played it seem to come away exceptionally impressed with what is in no way a throw-back, but a modern horn that on the surface appears to be non-Vincent in nature, but I suspect based on all of the feedback, the master would have been quite happy with.
That the "bottom of the line" is receiving so much more positive chatter than the subject of this thread, arguably the flagship, horn, is a remarkable and unexpected twist.
And I am left yearning to get my hands on an Apollo. |
There are several artists using the 190m37x I just can't remember them off the top of my head right now, and I'm pretty sure And Lott has used it for several of his performances.
As far as the 170 goes, I know Summer Camargo uses it for her snl stuff and uses the 19072v for some other stuff. She felt the vindabona was not bright enough for snl.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bgosvig
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2021
Posts: 83
Location: Fairfield, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PH wrote: | | I am presently playing one of the new 43s and I have three students who have bought versions of the new 37. All are AMAZING. The 37s are the best 37s I’ve ever played (of any era including Mt. Vernon). My 43 is the best Bb I’ve ever owned and I can play any kind of music I’m asked and sound appropriate and artistic (within my personal limitations). They are in shops, not merely in the hands of artists or in the pipeline. Many dealers may feel compelled to move old inventory before acquiring or pushing these new horns. Contact Andy Lott. He will hook you up! |
That is great feedback - exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you!
I also have a 190-43, the Centennial Edition from 2018 - a magnificent horn. I agree that it's a huge leap above the 180's of that time.
However, based upon what I've read on this thread, it appears that the newly released generation of 190's is yet another notch above my 2018 190-43.
I'm eager to try the 190M37X. I've no doubt it's a spectacular instrument.
I'd also be delighted to try the LR19043B. That bronze bell, for those with a taste for a bit of warmth in their output, is seductive.
All I need now is a trust fund 
_________________
Ben Gosvig
Bach 190-1B Commercial
Bach 190-43 Centennial Edition
Yamaha Xeno II - YTR-8335 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bgosvig
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2021
Posts: 83
Location: Fairfield, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PH wrote: | We are definitely NOT talking about the Mariachi, Commercial, Artisan, etc. It is my understanding that those horns have all been discontinued. We are talking about the newer version Bachs that are coming out of the factory in the last few months with serial numbers over 800000.
BTW, the new C trumpets are still in development, but I'm told they are getting close. |
Interesting. Would that mean that my 2017 190-1B Commercial is significantly different than current horns of the same model?
When looking at the new trumpets page from Bach, the 190-1B's shown in those photos look identical to mine, down to the smallest detail.
_________________
Ben Gosvig
Bach 190-1B Commercial
Bach 190-43 Centennial Edition
Yamaha Xeno II - YTR-8335 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bgosvig
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2021
Posts: 83
Location: Fairfield, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| njt wrote: | | I’m ready to give the 190m37x “a go” when they become more widely available and user comments from everyday players start to appear. I hope they have “the sound” along with excellent construction, efficiency and playability. For now it looks like there may be a few more months of waiting. Sigh ……… OP I’ll certainly post a review when I have the opportunity to spend some time with one! |
I would greatly value your insights and comments!
_________________
Ben Gosvig
Bach 190-1B Commercial
Bach 190-43 Centennial Edition
Yamaha Xeno II - YTR-8335 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bgosvig wrote: | | PH wrote: | We are definitely NOT talking about the Mariachi, Commercial, Artisan, etc. It is my understanding that those horns have all been discontinued. We are talking about the newer version Bachs that are coming out of the factory in the last few months with serial numbers over 800000.
BTW, the new C trumpets are still in development, but I'm told they are getting close. |
Interesting. Would that mean that my 2017 190-1B Commercial is significantly different than current horns of the same model?
When looking at the new trumpets page from Bach, the 190-1B's shown in those photos look identical to mine, down to the smallest detail. |
There are no new 190-1b the new horns are listed below at that link. From main website you have to click the new era trumpets.
https://www.connselmer.com/bach-trumpets
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bgosvig
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2021
Posts: 83
Location: Fairfield, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| chef8489 wrote: | | bgosvig wrote: | | PH wrote: | We are definitely NOT talking about the Mariachi, Commercial, Artisan, etc. It is my understanding that those horns have all been discontinued. We are talking about the newer version Bachs that are coming out of the factory in the last few months with serial numbers over 800000.
BTW, the new C trumpets are still in development, but I'm told they are getting close. |
Interesting. Would that mean that my 2017 190-1B Commercial is significantly different than current horns of the same model?
When looking at the new trumpets page from Bach, the 190-1B's shown in those photos look identical to mine, down to the smallest detail. |
There are no new 190-1b the new horns are listed below at that link. From main website you have to click the new era trumpets.
https://www.connselmer.com/bach-trumpets |
Ahhh...This now makes more sense. Previously, I was just searching on current models which included the Commercial and LR19043B. As you've indicated, neither of those show-up on the link you provided.
That link is more useful in assessing Bach's new wares and their corporate direction.
These "New Era" horns also appear to be the ones with the new zipper/soft leather/backpack-style case, which looks totally cool. The current cases look and feel impressive. But...they're boxy, heavy and impractical. The new style appears designed for real world use. Nice!
_________________
Ben Gosvig
Bach 190-1B Commercial
Bach 190-43 Centennial Edition
Yamaha Xeno II - YTR-8335 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bgosvig wrote: | | chef8489 wrote: | | bgosvig wrote: | | PH wrote: | We are definitely NOT talking about the Mariachi, Commercial, Artisan, etc. It is my understanding that those horns have all been discontinued. We are talking about the newer version Bachs that are coming out of the factory in the last few months with serial numbers over 800000.
BTW, the new C trumpets are still in development, but I'm told they are getting close. |
Interesting. Would that mean that my 2017 190-1B Commercial is significantly different than current horns of the same model?
When looking at the new trumpets page from Bach, the 190-1B's shown in those photos look identical to mine, down to the smallest detail. |
There are no new 190-1b the new horns are listed below at that link. From main website you have to click the new era trumpets.
https://www.connselmer.com/bach-trumpets |
Ahhh...This now makes more sense. Previously, I was just searching on current models which included the Commercial and LR19043B. As you've indicated, neither of those show-up on the link you provided.
That link is more useful in assessing Bach's new wares and their corporate direction.
These "New Era" horns also appear to be the ones with the new zipper/soft leather/backpack-style case, which looks totally cool. The current cases look and feel impressive. But...they're boxy, heavy and impractical. The new style appears designed for real world use. Nice! |
The new cases are made by Gard. I had a alligator and blue leather gard bag already, so I asked for the traditional Artisan case when they made my trumpet. I am not sure why I even asked for a case as I really never plan to sell my horn.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bgosvig
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2021
Posts: 83
Location: Fairfield, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| chef8489 wrote: | | bgosvig wrote: | | chef8489 wrote: | | bgosvig wrote: | | PH wrote: | We are definitely NOT talking about the Mariachi, Commercial, Artisan, etc. It is my understanding that those horns have all been discontinued. We are talking about the newer version Bachs that are coming out of the factory in the last few months with serial numbers over 800000.
BTW, the new C trumpets are still in development, but I'm told they are getting close. |
Interesting. Would that mean that my 2017 190-1B Commercial is significantly different than current horns of the same model?
When looking at the new trumpets page from Bach, the 190-1B's shown in those photos look identical to mine, down to the smallest detail. |
There are no new 190-1b the new horns are listed below at that link. From main website you have to click the new era trumpets.
https://www.connselmer.com/bach-trumpets |
Ahhh...This now makes more sense. Previously, I was just searching on current models which included the Commercial and LR19043B. As you've indicated, neither of those show-up on the link you provided.
That link is more useful in assessing Bach's new wares and their corporate direction.
These "New Era" horns also appear to be the ones with the new zipper/soft leather/backpack-style case, which looks totally cool. The current cases look and feel impressive. But...they're boxy, heavy and impractical. The new style appears designed for real world use. Nice! |
The new cases are made by Gard. I had a alligator and blue leather gard bag already, so I asked for the traditional Artisan case when they made my trumpet. I am not sure why I even asked for a case as I really never plan to sell my horn.
|
Beautiful!
_________________
Ben Gosvig
Bach 190-1B Commercial
Bach 190-43 Centennial Edition
Yamaha Xeno II - YTR-8335 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gmaxe
Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 406
Location: melbourne,australia
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey everyone, I had a chance to play with a local guy here in Australia who has one (the new 43 model) and they are beautiful sounding horns for sure. HOWEVER, the price in Australia is around $9000-10,000 dollars for one of these new bachs..I am not kidding. Don't know what the price is in the USA, but that is a lot of money. I am not sure pro's can afford that much for a horn here. Will see how we go.
_________________
http://giannimarinucci.wixsite.com/giannimarinucci
https://giannimarinucci.bandcamp.com/
Bach37GS
AdamsF2
Bach 38 Cornet
Bach 2C |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gmaxe wrote: | | Hey everyone, I had a chance to play with a local guy here in Australia who has one (the new 43 model) and they are beautiful sounding horns for sure. HOWEVER, the price in Australia is around $9000-10,000 dollars for one of these new bachs..I am not kidding. Don't know what the price is in the USA, but that is a lot of money. I am not sure pro's can afford that much for a horn here. Will see how we go. |
For a new 190 they are between 4400.00 and 5000.00 usd.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have no idea how Bach is going about creating this replica of the 50's vintage horn but two other things I didn't mention in my last post is the hard temper of the bell metal-very much harder than modern Bachs. And, there is no ring to the bell, in terms of flicking it to hear what tone it produces. Dead thunk.
It doesn't seem to matter- the horn plays great. The detective work and reverse engineering involved would be fascinating to know.
Best of luck.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yourbrass wrote: | I have no idea how Bach is going about creating this replica of the 50's vintage horn but two other things I didn't mention in my last post is the hard temper of the bell metal-very much harder than modern Bachs. And, there is no ring to the bell, in terms of flicking it to hear what tone it produces. Dead thunk.
It doesn't seem to matter- the horn plays great. The detective work and reverse engineering involved would be fascinating to know.
Best of luck. |
I don't think there was much reverse engineering. All of V. Bach's drawings and designs are still in the archive and Andy and the gang had access to them.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpjosh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Posts: 741
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PH wrote: | | They are in shops, not merely in the hands of artists or in the pipeline. Many dealers may feel compelled to move old inventory before acquiring or pushing these new horns. Contact Andy Lott. He will hook you up! |
Hi Pat,
Actually, these have been very hard for dealers to get (I am a dealer). I've had this instrument as well as four other new Bach models on order since March 2nd. 180S37s are still readily available and ship immediately, but I haven't even had the opportunity to try one of these new models other than the 170S43GYR. I hear they're very good instruments, but I want to see for myself of course.
Regards,
Josh
_________________
www.milanomusic.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nick8801
Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 174
Location: NJ
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I have my eye on a few of the new models, but I can’t just drop money on one without playing and comparing them first. Really hoping some local dealers get enough stock to have several available to demo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpjosh wrote: | | PH wrote: | | They are in shops, not merely in the hands of artists or in the pipeline. Many dealers may feel compelled to move old inventory before acquiring or pushing these new horns. Contact Andy Lott. He will hook you up! |
Hi Pat,
Actually, these have been very hard for dealers to get (I am a dealer). I've had this instrument as well as four other new Bach models on order since March 2nd. 180S37s are still readily available and ship immediately, but I haven't even had the opportunity to try one of these new models other than the 170S43GYR. I hear they're very good instruments, but I want to see for myself of course.
Regards,
Josh |
Hi, Josh. I have been led to understand the production is up and running and they are putting the new models out there as fast as they can WITHOUT CUTTING CORNERS OR SACRIFICING QUALITY CONTROL. I can't wait for everyone to try the new Bachs, but we clearly don't want a return to the previous QC issues of yore. WE WILL SELL NO WINE BEFORE IT'S TIME.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
