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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 177 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:53 am Post subject: Sound is not the most important thing. |
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I'm tired of hearing: "sound is the most important thing".
And it's not true.
Playing in tune and in time is much more important (and with the right dynamics).
When I practice the fundamentals I do it in the hope of playing a little easier every day, I not look for to improve my sound.
Improving tonal quality is the main goal of many instrumentalists.
But if we think as musicians and see music as a collective experience, then we will see that we are not the center of the universe and that the ideal sound for us does not matter to anyone, and that is the way it should be. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9068 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:40 am Post subject: |
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O.K. then, how about "Tone is ~a~ most important thing."?
No doubt playing in tune in a section is important, but in my experience, when you start a phrase with a crappy sound, nobody cares what follows.
A crappy sound usually implies deficiencies in other areas, as well. A pure tone usually implies a competence in the other areas. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 711 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:10 am Post subject: |
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My personal experience is that, given all the parameters you have listed, whichever trait you come up short on, is the most important thing!! But tonal perfection is, after all, a relatively subjective thing. A really crappy sound is easy to pick out, but if everything else is there, the player with the sound that best conveys the musical intent wins.
So once we get the basics under control, our sound is what we are left to perfect.
IMHO _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3329 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Sound is not the most important thing. |
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Trumpjerele wrote: | I'm tired of hearing: "sound is the most important thing". ... |
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I don't recall there being many people who really claim that 'sound is the most important thing'. Specifically that the tone of the note has overwhelming importance, and overrides the importance of items such as: right note, right time, right duration, right loudness, right articulation, etc.
The advice to 'imagine the sound' is not only about tone, but also includes all of those other items that should be done 'right'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12677 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think blend is a more accurate term than sound. If you are playing in a section if you have a crappy sound that doesn’t match the section that is the most important thing, imho.
The same applies to other instruments and vocal too.
My biggest pet peeve is the player that comes in early. Like the tenor who was always slightly early and slightly off pitch. The concentration required to remain true to the ensemble was huge. Of course, since I was normally the strongest vocalist in my section, I was placed next to this guy.
Perhaps the player who randomly comes in early is more dangerous. In those cases I immediately go into the “did I miss the timing in that entrance mode!?” |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1003 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:25 am Post subject: |
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They’re not mutually exclusive. Playing with the right intonation helps to find the sweet spot in the sound that will make you sound better. But if intonation is really off, it will result in a poor sound because the instrument is designed to work best at specific pitched, so ‘a good sound’ can be used as a blanket guide to ‘am I playing properly?’.
My current challenge is playing above the staff in tune. About 8 months ago I finally managed to get a decent, full sound up to about F above the staff. To my horror, I realized that while the notes sounded ‘good’ and mostly without straining, they were very sharp (between 20-45 cts). I’ve been working on getting them down in tune since then, and I’ve found that they project and sound better when played in tune (it’s tough to break old habits though, but I’m steadily getting used to the new pitches).
It took a period of sounding ‘very poorly but in tune’ to get there though, but looking back I think my sound above the staff wasn’t optimal to begin with. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: |
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My teacher used to teach me that rhythm was no. 1, and sound no. 2. I like that -- I think it makes sense. _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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sd4f Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Just to be a bit more precise, since I think using the term "tone" tends to be more of a mainstay of American musical lexicon, and especially prevalent in the guitar world. My musical journey tends to refer to it more as "sound" or "colour". A "tone" in the British derived musical lexicon is what you guys refer to as a "whole step".
Anyway, I digress, my perception is that getting a distinctive sound was an aspect of differentiation in the recording industry. Being recognisable is probably one of the key features of all musical recordings or artists that become famous, and that's where I tend to have noticed, when it comes to singers for instance, being instantly recognizable is something which all the most famous ones tend to be. It doesn't matter if they're classical, pop or whatever, you hear Luciano Pavarotti, Joan Sutherland or Maria Callas you know it's them singing. You hear Louis Armstrong (ok he's quite famous for the gravel), you know it's him. Elvis, Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, even today, Billie Eilish they are all very distinct.
Meanwhile, there's loads of people who unfortunately weren't gifted with the right stuff, and that lack of recognisability makes them sort of just blend in with everything else. This unfortunately is moreso the case with instrumentalists.
Problem with instruments is that it's usually quite difficult to actually extract any meaningful difference compared to anyone else. Style can be a big factor, but it is open to imitation. Sometimes a change in technique can do it, but then other people will just adopt it as well if it's anything meaningful. Electric guitars are an example where getting a distinctive sound is usually done by careful selection of what gear is used. The industry loves selling people gear.
Trumpets generally are in a similar category, as different mouthpieces, different instruments, they all try to do something a little bit different and as a result achieve a different sound. My problem is that no matter what, just about all gear tends to sound more alike than different, and I tend to have a lot of difficulty at times figuring out what it is that makes something sound good. I mean, why are certain instruments considered so superior, that they're worth many multiples of another example, just for their sound? I get it when something is good quality and lets a player do their best, but specifically prizing a certain sound out of acoustic instruments, particularly violins for example, tends to baffle me except when put right next to each other in an A/B test, for demonstration purposes.
So that's my spiel, when it comes to trumpets, I tend to worry less about how the specific instrument sounds, rather I'm more concerned about how it plays, and what it lets me do; how much work or fight do I need to put into it. I tend to find the mouthpiece to be the better place to try to colour the sound if I want a brighter or darker colour. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1003 Location: Europe
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:31 am Post subject: |
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My interpretation of the OP's post was that they meant the player's sound rather than that of the instrument.
Flaws in a player's technique will reflect in their sound, and if a player sounds well, they're at least doing some things correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the basis of the Bill Adams method; where a skilled teacher can identify a player's problems by evaluating how they sound (and likewise correct that by steering their sound into a different direction). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 177 Location: Spain
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
Specifically, I am referring to tonal quality.I am not referring to articulation, vibrato and those other things that define how notes should be played in a given style.
Also Iam not referring to the pedagogical schools, which focus on sound,(or tonal quality) to teach the technique of the instrument.
I don't think I know of any musician who is not in search of their ideal sound (tonal quality), no matter what instrument you choose. The concerns are the same.
Many times that journey involves a considerable expenditure of time, money and energy.
Too much investment for nothing.
Every instrument, played decently, already sounds as it is expected to sound, why don't we start worrying about the music and not so much about ourselves and our tone?
It's a question I ask myself.
I understand that in certain areas, such as in the world of classical orchestras, a specific tonal quality is required, I even believe that the equipment to achieve it is more or less standardized.
In that case, I'm sorry you'll have to work hard to get it.
Because the equipment will be 100% focused on getting the right tone, not on helping you play.
Luckily this is not my case and I try to play with the equipment that makes my life easier. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3329 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Sound is not the most important thing. |
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Trumpjerele wrote: | I'm tired of hearing: "sound is the most important thing". ... |
then much later -
Trumpjerele wrote: | ... Specifically, I am referring to tonal quality. ... |
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Is your tiredness to hearing: "sound is the most important thing"
because you believe that the phrase is always used specifically about 'tonal quality'? Or maybe because you feel that the phrase is widely understood to be specifically about tonal quality.
I'm sure very few people would agree, or insist, that tonal quality is the most important concern. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:11 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 177 Location: Spain
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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When people talk about sound, I always thought they meant tone quality.
What else can they be referring to? _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1003 Location: Europe
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Is it that the main thing people should look for in an instrument is that it should be easy to play, rather than 'how it sounds'?
@sd4f: Sorry for that, it seems you understood the OP better than I did. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8344 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't have a good tone and a nice sound, no one will want to hear you play.
If you can't play in tune, you will have difficulty playing with most groups.
If you can't play in time, you will have difficulty playing with anyone but yourself.
There is no "most important" because these are all important and necessary.
Are the wheels the most important part of the car? Or the engine? Or the steering? If it doesn't have wheels, it doesn't go anywhere. If the engine doesn't run it's not a vehicle, it's a stationary object. If the steering is broken, you can't control where you go.
People say "sound is the most important" aren't necessarily wrong, because some trumpet players seem to forget that in lieu of volume or range. But, it's hardly the only important thing. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Trumpjerele wrote: | When people talk about sound, I always thought they meant tone quality.
What else can they be referring to? |
What else? Might be timbre.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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sd4f Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | What else? Might be timbre. |
Timbre isn't something which is necessarily player specific, rather, it's what makes an instrument sound like it does, and not something else, for instance, why a trumpet is identifiable as a trumpet, and not a violin, even though they can play the same pitch.
This is where the topic becomes complicated, because what mostly happens with "sound" on a particular instrument, is that there are extremely subtle differences, where the sound is still identifiable as a trumpet.
Worst thing is though, a lot of purists tend to listen with their eyes rather than their ears. To some extent, having to A/B test just to figure out whether something is different and better, is already suggesting that the difference is too small to really worry about it. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:07 am Post subject: |
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sd4f wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | What else? Might be timbre. |
Timbre isn't something which is necessarily player specific, rather, it's what makes an instrument sound like it does, and not something else, for instance, why a trumpet is identifiable as a trumpet, and not a violin, even though they can play the same pitch.
This is where the topic becomes complicated, because what mostly happens with "sound" on a particular instrument, is that there are extremely subtle differences, where the sound is still identifiable as a trumpet.
Worst thing is though, a lot of purists tend to listen with their eyes rather than their ears. To some extent, having to A/B test just to figure out whether something is different and better, is already suggesting that the difference is too small to really worry about it. |
Actually timbre often IS “player specific”, if we’re talking about the same thing. My understanding and use of the term of timbre is “color”, and taking equipment (horns and mouthpieces) out of the equation, it usually is player specific, and it’s also influenced by individual player’s approach.
I suppose you could stretch the definition to include your example of a violin vs trumpet, but I think most of us here tend to think of it in terms of (and these terms are probably overused) dark vs bright, obviously a lot more subtle than a trumpet sound vs a violin sound.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9068 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:29 am Post subject: |
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"We can define timbre as the specific tone or quality that a certain instrument has. It is also known as tone color or tone quality."
I have always used it to mean tone quality. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | "We can define timbre as the specific tone or quality that a certain instrument has. It is also known as tone color or tone quality."
I have always used it to mean tone quality. |
Ok, I’m not sure where that quote came from, but I have always thought quality and color were not necessarily the same thing, so I equate timbre with “color.” I have young students whose tone quality still has distortions and imperfections, but the “color”, (or what I think of as timbre), even in early development stages might lean towards “dark” or “bright.” So someone can have let’s say a dark timbre, but the quality is not necessarily good. Or vice versa.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3329 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | ... but I have always thought quality and color were not necessarily the same thing, so I equate timbre with “color.” ... |
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I agree that there is a difference in meaning between the words -
'quality' implies a subjective rating of the tone - how well it meets some predetermined 'goal'.
'color' is more objective - it considers the tangible acoustic elements that comprise the overall sound. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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