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MartinY New Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2023 Posts: 3 Location: Cape Town
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:07 am Post subject: Playing gone to hell |
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I am 76 and came to the trumpet about three years ago. Typically I practice 1 hour a day and have done so for three years. I have been doing well and was very happy until about a month ago. For a while i changed my lip position with more top lip in the mouthpiece and less bottom lip. This worked for a while and then I moved back to my old position. subsequently I have found that my endurance has become appalling and my ability to reach even a E on the staff in the middle of a piece I am playing impossible without a lot of strain and bad sound. To give an example if I play something simple like "A nightingale Sang in Berkley square". first time and second up to an F no problem. Third time only with strain and the G after is impossible.
I am at a complete loss.
I have tried almost everything like resting and playing only every second day. Increasing my long notes and pedal tones.
This problem never used to be the case.
Please, any help would be hugely appreciated. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3344 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: |
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A few somewhat 'common' problems:
1) Using high rim pressure to force the lips into position.
2) Trying to 'stretch' the lips thin and tight for higher notes.
3) Trying to actually 'buzz' the pitch INTO the mouthpiece.
4) NOT using lower lip rim pressure as a way to control the distribution of the overall rim pressure between upper & lower lips.
5) NOT using the tongue as a way to help adjust lip / teeth / jaw position.
If there is some book, online info, etc. that you have embraced as your 'playing technique' - what is it? Most of those are pretty good, once you've gotten down to the 'real basics', and not caught in confusing words, imaginations, pseudo-science, etc. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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MartinY New Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2023 Posts: 3 Location: Cape Town
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 6:22 pm Post subject: Playing gone to hell |
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JayKosta wrote: | A few somewhat 'common' problems:
1) Using high rim pressure to force the lips into position.
2) Trying to 'stretch' the lips thin and tight for higher notes.
3) Trying to actually 'buzz' the pitch INTO the mouthpiece.
4) NOT using lower lip rim pressure as a way to control the distribution of the overall rim pressure between upper & lower lips.
5) NOT using the tongue as a way to help adjust lip / teeth / jaw position.
If there is some book, online info, etc. that you have embraced as your 'playing technique' - what is it? Most of those are pretty good, once you've gotten down to the 'real basics', and not caught in confusing words, imaginations, pseudo-science, etc. |
Hi Jay
Thank you so much for your response. Please could I ask you to elaborate a bit on your number 3 ( I think I understand but want to make sure) and in your number 5 I take it that you mean do not use the tongue,,,,? Also if you have any exercises on number 3 I would be grateful.
Thanks again.
Martin |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3344 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Buzzing - you should not try to actually 'buzz into' the mouthpiece. All that is needed is positioning the lips correctly on the mouthpiece (with entire trumpet) and controlled blowing through the lip aperture. The physics of the trumpet tubing creates a 'standing way' that provides back pressure on the lips which results in the lips acting as a the vibrating control valve.
see this for a good video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTb2gEaTU4
Tongue - yes use the tongue. There's a lot of discussion about how the tongue affects playing. My view is that using active muscle control for the tongue's position can strongly affect the adjustment to the lips, teeth and jaw position.
For me, my visualization of tongue usage is variations on have the tongue forward in the mouth with the tip on or near the lower teeth, and flexing the tongue by 'pronouncing' the sound 'yee'.
I am a long time amateur player who tries to 'think' about these things. I am not an experienced teacher. I've written some thoughts about embouchure that you might find interesting. It will at least give you an idea of the various topics that get discussed.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1817
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Playing gone to hell |
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MartinY wrote: | For a while i changed my lip position with more top lip in the mouthpiece and less bottom lip. This worked for a while and then I moved back to my old position. subsequently I have found that my endurance has become appalling and my ability to reach even a E on the staff in the middle of a piece I am playing impossible without a lot of strain and bad sound. |
Without seeing or hearing you play through this journey, I am guessing you didn't ACTUALLY place it in your old position. You have placed it in a new 3rd setting.
When you switched back you could have put more bottom lip than you used to, or placed it slightly lower on your top lip than you used to. Lots to process. Because of your symptoms I'm guessing thing are slightly too low on your top lip, but this just a guess.
Once you're in "no-mans-land" its hard to self diagnose the best position. Alternatively, you can also just try to keep coming back to trumpet, without "specifically and consciously setting the mouthpiece" and it could settle on its own!
Good luck! |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 192 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that you’ve started using too much arm pressure. That is, pushing the horn harder and harder against your lips to achieve the higher notes. Look at yourself in a mirror after practicing. Too much pressure will show as a red ring. In the range that you are playing you should be able to play the notes with the horn simply resting in your hand. That is with virtually no pressure against your lips. |
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MartinY New Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2023 Posts: 3 Location: Cape Town
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all so much for the advice. I am putting it all together and hopefully my playing will recover. Thanks again. |
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trUMBet67 Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2003 Posts: 220 Location: Italia
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you could look at The Balanced Embouchure forum, years ago I purchased the book and was (and is ) very helpful. _________________ Umberto -
Bb: Taylor Chicago II Lite,Conn 38B,Olds Super,Olds Recording,Conn 22B (3),Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper,Conn 28A,B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A |
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