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Robert P
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 Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:05 am Post subject: Do you consider Al Hirt to be a jazz player? |
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I know he declared he wasn't a jazz musician but obviously he played a lot of jazz, constantly performed with his buddy Pete Fountain who *is* commonly regarded as a jazz musician. I'm sure there's a large overlap of the repertoire of Louis Armstrong and Al, many regard Louis as the wellspring of jazz.
Al could play improvised solos over changes which seemingly would by definition make him a jazz musician but I guess it was more a matter of how he marketed himself which was a popular act that incorporated jazz flavoring.
What say you?
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Al Hirt could play anything...as long as you don't bring up his recording of the Haydn with Fiedler, though...
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I think his main love was Dixieland, but he was able to play about anything. His greatest commercial success was as a pop music trumpet player, though.
Along those same lines, is Herb Alpert a jazz musician? I’ve heard some pretty tasty jazz recordings by him, but he’s best known for the Tijuana Brass.
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: |
Along those same lines, is Herb Alpert a jazz musician? I’ve heard some pretty tasty jazz recordings by him, but he’s best known for the Tijuana Brass. |
Herb Alpert is not a fireball improviser by any means, but he is very musical--a fact that took me many years to realize after abandoning him for Chase and Maynard in my teens.
I would not call him a jazz player, however, if the definition of a jazz player is someone who can blow chorus after chorus and/or nail complex changes. But he has a unique sound and he enjoys playing what he plays. And he has always surrounded himself with excellent musicians who are great improvisers.
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Last edited by spitvalve on Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I'm awed by Al Hirt's technique. There's a fine line, sometimes, between a jazz player and a commercial player. He's not my kind of jazz player, but who cares? I loved his work with Pete Fountaine. And you can't get any closer to jazz roots than New Orleans. So . . .
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jeirvine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:30 am Post subject: |
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His playing: yes.
His records (or the ones I've heard): No
The syrupy pop dreck '60s LPs must have made him a lot of money (I hope), but I sure don't enjoy listening to them.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| jeirvine wrote: | His playing: yes.
His records (or the ones I've heard): No
The syrupy pop dreck '60s LPs must have made him a lot of money (I hope), but I sure don't enjoy listening to them. |
I'm guessing you're referring to things like Java, Cotton Candy?
Out of curiosity and not at all disputing anyone's individual taste just comparing notes - have you ever heard his "Horn A-Plenty" album? If so how does it strike you?
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | Al Hirt could play anything...as long as you don't bring up his recording of the Haydn with Fiedler, though... |
The story I've been told is that he didn't want to record the Haydn - he had studied at the Cincinnati Conservatory in his youth but was well aware his legit chops were rusty after years of playing his bread 'n butter style. But the suits at RCA insisted. As it was told to me Al hated that recording for the rest of his life.
I imagine if he'd been able to focus on playing in that genre for a year or so we'd have heard something different but I'm sure that wasn't realistic.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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It wasn't just technique, it was phrasing, articulation and interpretation. Do you lose that?
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jeirvine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | jeirvine wrote: | His playing: yes.
His records (or the ones I've heard): No
The syrupy pop dreck '60s LPs must have made him a lot of money (I hope), but I sure don't enjoy listening to them. |
I'm guessing you're referring to things like Java, Cotton Candy?
Out of curiosity and not at all disputing anyone's individual taste just comparing notes - have you ever heard his "Horn A-Plenty" album? If so how does it strike you? |
I haven't heard that one. I'll keep an eye out for it. Any others worth seeking out?
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Ronnman
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t know if this album is considered Jazz by most, but IMHO is simply fantastic, no matter the category.
Horn A Plenty YouTube link: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw494BFXDBIUf5wnPTE3wZtxBaPGfMnK_&si=awvtX2m5DdArnHbZ
Just look at the trumpet section; Al Hirt, Conrad Gozzo, Frank Beach, Mannie Klein, Uan Rasey and Conducted by Billy May
I agree with one of the YouTube comments, “Probably one of the greatest trumpet albums ever recorded.”
Another good album is “The Geastest Horn In The World”. YouTube link: https://youtu.be/A9U9GwHHIk8?si=Aof_aSzWlNlQ2CuM
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | It wasn't just technique, it was phrasing, articulation and interpretation. Do you lose that? |
Are you referring to Al and classical playing?
Classical players focus on grooving their stroke a certain way. In his youth Maynard went to a conservatory on a full ride scholarship so presumably he impressed someone with his legit playing. Do you see him credibly playing the Telemann in D or the like in the period everyone knows him from?
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jeirvine wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
Out of curiosity and not at all disputing anyone's individual taste just comparing notes - have you ever heard his "Horn A-Plenty" album? If so how does it strike you? |
I haven't heard that one. I'll keep an eye out for it. Any others worth seeking out? |
In my mind a lot of his are worth seeking out - with the IMO caveat, whether you'll concur I can't say. I mentioned Horn A-Plenty because I regard it as a great example of Al in his prime and an album that was given the royal treatment in all respects - the backing band, arranging, engineering - all top-notch. I'm including a link below to the complete album someone put up on YouTube.
What's also interesting is if you listen to enough of his albums and seek out examples of his TV appearances you hear his different takes on tunes.
Look up his appearances on Ed Sullivan, Lawrence Welk, there's a low resolution video of part of The Al Hirt Show where he does a trumpet lineup with Dizzy, Don Ellis, Pete Candoli that's excellent - on that same show he played behind Sarah Vaughn. Somewhere I've got the whole thing on audio where I recorded it off the TV speaker when I was a kid and it was on as a summer re-run. Also check out the video with Al, Pete Candoli and Red Nichols playing with Horace Heidt - whose band Al played with in his early career. Also appearances on the Dinah Shore Chevy Show.
Here's a cut off a live album at his club in New Orleans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2n8LWDY_mY
He did a couple of live albums at Dan's Pier 600 earlier in his career that are great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUBIKDbeYnE
He did some nice trumpet and strings recordings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4NZRzPWSZE
Horn A-Plenty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yO4X2Qq-NA
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Jazz is improvisation in a jazz style. Dixieland is absolutely a jazz style. Al Hirt was a master of Dixieland improvisation and he could improvise in other jazz styles as well. So, Al Hirt was definitely a jazz trumpet player.
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Didymus
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:41 am Post subject: He played the Haydn too? Yeah, he did. |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | Al Hirt could play anything...as long as you don't bring up his recording of the Haydn with Fiedler, though... |
Well.... he played that too, even if he was dissatisfied with the result. In other words, he played it, just not "to spec".
My guess is that Al Hirt could play anything that was put in front of him, but there were certain styles that he could play much better than others.
I wish I could play anything put in front of me. I wish I could be unhappy with a recording of the Haydn that I played, in collaboration with a famous conductor and a popular orchestra. 
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Horn A-Plenty is one of my favorite things to listen to, I never get tired of it. Along with the Heifetz recording of the Tchaikovsky from the 50s with Fritz Reiner and The Chicago Symphony - also an RCA album.
Billy May's arrangements are sparkling magic - big band supplemented with tuba, glock, harp, french horns, tymp, vibes, tubular bells - every one of them is a gem, absolute audio bliss. The engineer really had their stuff together.
That Greatest Horn In The World is superb - I'd never heard that one - thanks for the heads- up! I wonder who the lead trumpet is, haven't found any personnel listing for the Henri Rene' orchestra.
Al put out a lot of albums, I'm sure there are a number of them I haven't heard.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | It wasn't just technique, it was phrasing, articulation and interpretation. Do you lose that? |
Are you referring to Al and classical playing? |
I am responding to the comment about the Haydn/Boston Pops recording and only to that.
p.s. I would kind'a surmise that if someone says Al Hirt couldn't play Jazz really neans that Al Hirt couldn't play THEIR kind of Jazz.
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rothman
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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The doubts on his jazz ability would probably not exist had a record label like Blue Note or other assembled personnel for a recording, where he might have held his own, but it's not easy to answer :
McCoy Tyner
Paul Chambers
Billy Higgins
Curtis Fuller
Al Hirt |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| rothman wrote: | | The doubts on his jazz ability would probably not exist had a record label like Blue Note or other assembled personnel for a recordingt . . . |
I always appreciate your comments, rothman, but I somehow don't think that Al would have been at the top of Rudy Van Gelder's wishlist. 
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Somewhere on YouTube there’s a video of Al with Diz and George Benson playing A Night In Tunisia. Al could play jazz.
Like Harry James before him, I think he was stuck with the label of being a pop instrumentalist.
Harry and Al could flat out play pretty much anything. |
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