Synthetic vs Petroleum Based Valve Oil

[JKmeng3]

Recently I had my first and third valves sticking. I started using Yamaha valve oil which is at least 20 years olds but it hadn’t occurred to me that it was the oil at first so I just cleaned the horn real well. Prior to this I was using Yamaha valve oil that was newer but I had used it up. The problem continued so then I decided to use some Blue Juice valve oil and so far that has worked. This is on an Olds Recording horn. I looked on the internet for answers to “does valve oil go bad”, “synthetic vs petroleum based, brands, etc.”. I found conflicting information on whether Blue Juice was synthetic or not. I also found that changing from petroleum based to synthetic can be a problem as synthetic can knock loose stuff that was left behind by petroleum based but I don’t think that was my issue as I thought the Yamaha oil was a synthetic. So far I am thinking that the issue was valve oil that was too old. Does someone have thoughts on this? Thank you.

[JWG]

Synthetic oils will last far longer than non-synthetic oils, because the synthetic oil goes through refining processes which cause oil molecules to group into equal length chains and filtering that removes most of the extraneous naturally occurring chemicals which cause oils to breakdown.

If you remember your high school chemistry class, like breaks down like. So, natural oils will contain chemicals in them which break oil molecule chains apart.

Equal length oil molecule chains and filtering of those extraneous naturally occurring chemicals within oil constitute much of the reason why synthetic oils perform so well and do not break down easily when exposed to friction/pressure, extreme temperatures, and time itself.
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[Ronnman]

JKmeng3 - To the best of my knowledge, Yamaha valve oils are synthetic, Blue Juice is not. Many trumpet player do not like Blue Juice, me included. With that said, there some who swear by it. My experience has been that the synthetic valve oils are far superior to mineral based oils. I use Monster Eco-Pro valve oil, the light for tight valves and heavy for older valves with more clearance. I have heard good reviews of Yamaha oils, although I have not personally used it.

When was the last time you cleaned the horn throughly? If it has been some time, I would clean the horn, valves and valve casings good. Pay particular attention to brushing the tube passages between the valve casings. As a second cleaning I clean the valves and casings using cheese cloth, or strips of an old tee shirt, soaked with 91% isopropyl alcohol. Then oil the valves generously. I would recommend a synthetic oil. If the horns valves have not been replated and refit, you should probably use a heavier viscosity oil designed for vintage horn valves, which generally have some wear.
Ron
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Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
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Edwards Gen II 2014

[Andy Cooper]

If you play the horn all of the time, Blue Juice is great.

If you store the horn for a period of time with the valves left in the horn you may have to do some cleaning before playing it again.

I'm not playing as much now so I have mainly switched to synthetics and Denis Wick for one problem trumpet.

[JKmeng3]

Thanks to all of the posts about valve oil recommendations. I plan on getting synthetic valve oil based on the information in the reply’s to my question. I appreciate it!

[Jimbosan]

Toss the old valve oil. The componets in mineral based oils separate and break down over time. Plus mineral based oils have traces of undesireable impurities, no matter how well they were made, and that break down over time. So you don't know what's in the oil after that long, but it's not good.

Synthetics have almost no impurities. They are made with consistant size molecules and are much more stable than any mineral base oil. But they don't last forever, plus they have changed a lot in 20 years. Dump the old stuff in any case.

I studied that stuff while I was studing Chemical Engineering, and that was a long time.

PS: I use Hetman or Yamaha synthetic when I couldn't get Hetman.
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[Lawler Bb]

Lots of folks like synthetic oils (Hetman, Ultra-Pure, Yamaha, Monster, Resilience, etc.). There are some really great synthetics out there. I'm one of the few that still prefers "dino" oil.

I used scented Zaja for a long time (my favorite) but it's now impossible to get. 5-Starr is also excellent. I just ordered some Warburton PDQ and have used it for a few days. So far, it's as good or better than anything I have ever used. Really great. Slight petroleum odor.

It doesn't really matter what brand or type of valve oil you use..........it's more important that you keep your horn clean and oil regularly. Some people still swear by Al Cass or Blue Juice. I'm not a big fan of them, but again, if you oil regularly and keep your horn clean they are fine.
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[Rhondo]

For what it may be worth, Josh Landress website lists all of the used horns he services and sells as using Yamaha valve oil, also specifying ‘Light’, ‘Regular’, ‘Vintage’, etc…

[JKmeng3]

Thanks for the additional recommendations on synthetic valve oil. I will toss the old stuff.

[tyler.slamkowski]

I had valve issues with a few of my horns, so I purchased medium and light versions of pretty much every brand I could find, including the Bio-Oils. I at least did Hetman, Berp, La Tromba, Monster, Yamaha, Blue Juice, and Al Cass. Ultimately, Yamaha Regular Synthetic has been far and above the best for my Shires trumpets and my Yamaha cornet. I hope you find what works for you; it's different for everyone!

[JKmeng3]

Thank you Tyler for your experience with several different brands of valve oil. That is good information.

[JayKosta]

My guess is that a lot depends on the individual player's 'exhale / body chemistry', regarding how different oils (and grease) works for them.
And perhaps food & drink choice.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

[stevecass]

From what I understand, Al Cass is now synthetic. Yet the bottle has not been up-dated to reflect this change, (apparently they want everyone to think it's always been). Check out the safety page on the oil website. And there is now a fatal warning/on the back of the bottle as well.

From what I've been told regarding synthetics is, yes, they do last longer but as one player explained to me, the more you put on, the more sluggish. As opposed to the original Al Cass, the more you put on, the faster it gets without any thing sluggish going on.

Back in the late 90's the oil company we used to get the oil from played us as though we would never notice a change and because the synthetic ingredients were cheaper to buy and easier to get, they changed it without saying anything. Well, my skin got hard from handing thousands of wet bottles daily and that's when the manufacture admitted what they did. I told them to change it back at any/all costs and they did.

No doubt my family doesn't really care because they don't actually play an instrument and only care about profits. Diz would never have went with Synthetic because it wouldn't have been as fast as he wanted. He played at extreme speed and synthetic just wouldn't have cut it for him. So not sure how they can still use him as an endorsement.

[Andy Cooper]

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

I read somewhere (I am erudite) ... that waaaay back in the 19th Century (when Cornets were ubiquitous), WHALE OIL was used as a lube (valves, slides).

From what I gathered, "science" seemed to agree, that NOTHING was superior to WHALE OIL.
Early 20th Century automobile automatic transmissions used WHALE OIL.
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[Riojazz]

[Brassnose]

I have to admit that the thread title keeps confusing me: most synthetic compounds nowadays are petroleum based.

Rather, we should probably distinguish between oils that are obtained via cracking, distillation, etc. „directly“ (it is a long and complicated process) from crude oils vs. valve oils that are made from well defined (organic) molecules and in the end have an exact chemical composition.

In both cases the final oil will likely be a mixture of different components. The two types have a different genesis and composition but ultimately, both are petroleum based (unless I completely misunderstand the term petroleum based).

The future will, in any case, be plant based oils but I don’t know those oils well enough to say if they are true competitors already (though I quite like my first bottle of Berp Yellow that I’m testing just now).
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