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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:40 am Post subject: Open Throat, or open Backbore? |
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Hi, I’m looking for subtle change(s) on my current mouthpiece, and I’m wondering if the change I’m after is in the throat, the backbore, or both.
Here is what I’m after:
1. Allow more air to be poured through, with less resistance.
2. Sounds in Forte/FF not being too bright, or too edgy.
3. Sound being slightly less forward, and more omni-directional.
4. Keeping the majority of focus in the sound without it spreading or becoming airy.
I am aware that it may not be possible the meet all of this criteria, but i'm hoping someone can guide me in the right direction to get closer to my end goal.
thank you. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:46 am Post subject: |
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What mouthpiece are you talking about? _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | What mouthpiece are you talking about? |
It’s a custom |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: |
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MountVernon wrote: | Richard III wrote: | What mouthpiece are you talking about? |
It’s a custom |
Quote: |
Whats going on is my throat (#28 ) is what works for me on 99% of mouthpieces. The Backbore is #23, but the shank is shorter than my other mouthpieces where a #23 usually works for me, so I assume because of the shorter shank, the backbore would have to be tighter (24, 25, 26 etc)... Unless the Throat would also have to be tighter to match the shorter overall length (Shank length). |
OK - I found this in one of your past posts. I'm not familiar with a #23 back bore. What maker is this from. Is it a tight backbore or a large symphonic one?
Last edited by Andy Cooper on Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Based off of a Bach 5V. Has a shorter shank, slightly tighter throat & slightly tighter backbore. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:20 am Post subject: |
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MountVernon wrote: | Based off of a Bach 5V. Has a shorter shank, slightly tighter throat & slightly tighter backbore. |
Stock backbore for the 5V is a #25 Bach which is close to a Schilke D. Is the #23 a proprietary backbore based on a tighter Bach #24?
Who is the mouthpiece maker? |
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Not sure, it’s tighter. It feels about 2 sizes smaller, so maybe a 23.
It’s a frost |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Open Throat, or open Backbore? |
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MountVernon wrote: | ...
Here is what I’m after:
1. Allow more air to be poured through, with less resistance.
2. Sounds in Forte/FF not being too bright, or too edgy.
3. Sound being slightly less forward, and more omni-directional.
4. Keeping the majority of focus in the sound without it spreading or becoming airy. ... |
-------------------------------
This might be accomplished by adjusting your embouchure technique - IF you are using too much rim pressure, overly tense lip aperture, or anything that impedes air flow.
I am not suggesting an 'embouchure change' - just perhaps minor adjustments to what you are doing now.
I think the first thing is to verify that you are producing good, full, resonant sounds in your 'easy playing' range. Then, evaluate the sound quality and embouchure usage for higher notes. If sound quality starts to deteriorate at some point, then pay attention to what you are doing that feels different - pressure, tension, restriction to air flow, etc.
Getting best results from mouthpiece changes can require your using 'good technique' that does not 'fight against' the desired results. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 10:00 am Post subject: |
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No. I need some guidance with mouthpiece adjustments, not an embouchure “adjustment”. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Those are not Bach backbore numbers. Bach don’t go is sequence like that.
It’s hard to answer the question because sometimes it’s not as intuitive.
Sometimes one throat size makes a pretty big difference, sometimes not.
The difference between backbore sizes can be really quite drastic. It takes more difference to feel a difference.
Often times the same tapered reamer is used to make a few diferent backbore sizes, just by changing the distance the reamer is inserted into the backbore. When you do it that way, one of the main things you are doing is changing the throat length. The change in throat length has at least as much effect as the change in backbore size.
Opening the throat doesn’t change the sound very much unless it’s a lot of change. It does change the feel of the airflow.
A bigger backbore does a lot of things, usually warmer sound, more flexible, less slotted, definite change in articulation response either better or worse. There is a sweet spot with backbore size where too big gets worse in most aspects except maybe for basic sound. The backbore should generally be bigger for cups with more cup volume, and smaller for smaller/shallow cups. You can warm up the sound of a shallow cup with a big backbore, but other things like intonation and articulation and stability can get worse.
Let’s say you keep the same cup and go from a 28 throat to a 27, but counteract that by inserting the backbore reamer 1/16th less insertion. That makes the backbore smaller and the throat longer. The result is GENERALLY for most people going feel the same in airflow, but be more slotted and less flexible. But not drastically because the changes are pretty small. If you had two mouthpieces like that, you would find that one of them might work better in different horns. So in your Bach you would use this one and in your Yamaha Z you would use the other one.
It takes quite a bit of experimentation to get a real handle on things and most people never have access to all those kinds of variation, so it’s kind of like lucking up on a good formula. Having said that, the elephant in the room is that even if you formula might not be the ultimate best, by far the most powerful variable is YOU getting used to setup, and basically learning subconsciously the realities of playing that setup day in/day out through all kinds of days when you are fresh/beat up/sick with a cold/in shape/out of shape/playing hard gig/playing easy gig/morning/night/etc.
Whatever you learn will turn into what works best for you unless you are using some kind of drastic setup that worked best when you tried stuff for a few minutes one time. So there is a reason that “normal” setups, or “conventional wisdom” setups exist. What works for most people should be a guide that tells you when you are getting into extreme territory which could work for you or you could be fooling yourself too. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Thank you! This is very helpful! |
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MountVernon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 30
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:09 am Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | Those are not Bach backbore numbers. Bach don’t go is sequence like that.
It’s hard to answer the question because sometimes it’s not as intuitive.
Sometimes one throat size makes a pretty big difference, sometimes not.
The difference between backbore sizes can be really quite drastic. It takes more difference to feel a difference.
Often times the same tapered reamer is used to make a few diferent backbore sizes, just by changing the distance the reamer is inserted into the backbore. When you do it that way, one of the main things you are doing is changing the throat length. The change in throat length has at least as much effect as the change in backbore size.
Opening the throat doesn’t change the sound very much unless it’s a lot of change. It does change the feel of the airflow.
A bigger backbore does a lot of things, usually warmer sound, more flexible, less slotted, definite change in articulation response either better or worse. There is a sweet spot with backbore size where too big gets worse in most aspects except maybe for basic sound. The backbore should generally be
bigger for cups with more cup volume, and smaller for smaller/shallow cups. You can warm up the sound of a shallow cup with a big backbore, but other things like intonation and articulation and stability can get worse.
Let’s say you keep the same cup and go from a 28 throat to a 27, but counteract that by inserting the backbore reamer 1/16th less insertion. That makes the backbore smaller and the throat longer. The result is GENERALLY for most people going feel the same in airflow, but be more slotted and less flexible. But not drastically because the changes are pretty small. If you had two mouthpieces like that, you would find that one of them might work better in different horns. So in your Bach you would use this one and in your Yamaha Z you would use the other one.
It takes quite a bit of experimentation to get a real handle on things and most people never have access to all those kinds of variation, so it’s kind of like lucking up on a good formula. Having said that, the elephant in the room is that even if you formula might not be the ultimate best, by far the most powerful variable is YOU getting used to setup, and basically learning subconsciously the realities of playing that setup day in/day out through all kinds of days when you are fresh/beat up/sick with a cold/in shape/out of shape/playing hard gig/playing easy gig/morning/night/etc.
Whatever you learn will turn into what works best for you unless you are using some kind of drastic setup that worked best when you tried stuff for a few minutes one time. So there is a reason that “normal” setups, or “conventional wisdom” setups exist. What works for most people should be a guide that tells you when you are getting into extreme territory which could work for you or you could be fooling yourself too. |
So let’s say I’m looking to take the edge off my loud dynamics, and make the sound larger while keeping the sound focused/preventing it from being airy. Does that sound like throat or backbore to you?
Last edited by MountVernon on Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:14 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Daniel Barenboim Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 247
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yes
DB |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Knowing what mouthpiece you actually play would be a big help. In looking over your past posts it would seem that you are using a Frost 5 or 6 TF - trumpet flugelhorn mouthpiece. It might be the TC model, but since you said the cup was like a Bach 5V - the TF would be closer.
Here is the Curry TF in 3C size compared to a Bach 5V. The Frost is probably similar
https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?mpc1id=VA4580002&mpc2id=VB005700&backcolor=blue
It should be marked on the mouthpiece - something like 5TF or 6TF.
The Frost TF would have a proprietary backbore matched up with a throat size appropriate to the cup. (I don't see how he managed to get a Flugel cup to play with a #28 throat.)
The Backbore is shorter since with a cup that deep, the horn would play flat with a standard length backbore.
If this is the mouthpiece, it was designed to play the way it does. You would need to contact Frost to modify it but it would be hard to say what it would play like after modification.
If you want a different sound why not try something like a Bach 6. Nice medium dark, focused sound with a lot of core. You can bore the throats out on a Bach with out doing much damage. It would also not be a big deal to have one cut and threaded for backbores. |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 726 Location: California
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Open Throat, or open Backbore? |
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MountVernon wrote: | Hi, I’m looking for subtle change(s) on my current mouthpiece, and I’m wondering if the change I’m after is in the throat, the backbore, or both.
Here is what I’m after:
1. Allow more air to be poured through, with less resistance.
My understanding is that since the throat is the smallest part of the mouthpiece, the throat is the only component that can physically alter the amount of air that you can put through. I therefore feel that you would need to increase the size of the throat to achieve this aim.
2. Sounds in Forte/FF not being too bright, or too edgy.
I would have thought that a larger backbore would be more likely to achieve this, but this is probably as much a factor of the cup, and also how much air you put through.
3. Sound being slightly less forward, and more omni-directional.
Probably a larger backbore.
4. Keeping the majority of focus in the sound without it spreading or becoming airy.
Probably a smaller throat, which is contradictory to everything else.
I am aware that it may not be possible the meet all of this criteria, but i'm hoping someone can guide me in the right direction to get closer to my end goal.
thank you.
These are my thoughts before I read further to what you actually play.
Take care and best wishes
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | MountVernon wrote: | Richard III wrote: | What mouthpiece are you talking about? |
It’s a custom |
Quote: |
Whats going on is my throat (#28 ) is what works for me on 99% of mouthpieces. The Backbore is #23, but the shank is shorter than my other mouthpieces where a #23 usually works for me, so I assume because of the shorter shank, the backbore would have to be tighter (24, 25, 26 etc)... Unless the Throat would also have to be tighter to match the shorter overall length (Shank length). |
OK - I found this in one of your past posts. I'm not familiar with a #23 back bore. What maker is this from. Is it a tight backbore or a large symphonic one? |
Oh I remember this, and asking at the time what a 23 backbore is, as I've never heard of it. Reading all the posts, I think that it would help for us to know what your mouthpiece is. You say that is a Frost and custom with a cup like a Bach 5V. So we are talking about something along the lines of a Curry TF cup?
Looking at the Frost website, you can combine your own parameters. It looks like the smallest throat that he offers is a 27, and I can't see that he makes a 23 backbore. I imagine that Matt Frost would contact you if you combined parameters that wouldn't work very well together.
I have two suggestions. The first, is to let us know exactly what Matt Frost parameters your custom mouthpiece has from these options:
https://www.frostcustombrass.net/onepiecetrumpetmouthpieces.html
Or if any of the parameters are truly custom, what they are, as presumably you must have had a discussion with Matt Frost before having your custom mouthpiece made.
My second suggestion is to ask Matt Frost. He made your mouthpiece, he knows his mouthpieces, he will probably be able to answer your questions better than anyone on here.
Maybe I'm wrong, but your appear to have a cup that is normally combined with a larger throat, with instead a tighter 28 throat, and also possibly a slightly tighter than expected backbore for the cup.
I think that you should either ask Matt Frost about the balance of your custom piece, and the specific changes you are looking to make, or go with a stock piece such as the Curry TF, on which the maker has combined the mouthpiece characteristics that best suit each other.
I'm sure we are just misunderstanding each other, but I have visions of a throat and backbore from a shallower lead style piece combined with a flugel style cup. If so, I've never heard of this combination, and possibly a larger throat and backbore would be a good idea, but I'm no mouthpiece maker. I'm sure Matt Frost will have the answer.
Take care and best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Open Throat, or open Backbore? |
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MountVernon wrote: |
Here is what I’m after:
1. Allow more air to be poured through, with less resistance.
2. Sounds in Forte/FF not being too bright, or too edgy.
3. Sound being slightly less forward, and more omni-directional.
4. Keeping the majority of focus in the sound without it spreading or becoming airy.
I am aware that it may not be possible the meet all of this criteria |
You've got it in one - not possible without a lot of stuffing about. So, remove #3 and #4 as they are opposing ideas - spread your sound as well as focus it without spreading.
Getting rid of edge in loud dynamics is leaning towards opening up the throat. Of course, your sound is a mental concept, so adjusting metal (inflexible) is easier than adjusting mental approach (flexible).
This leaves you with pouring in more air. Open up the throat from that tiny size you have Bach's point of departure for a throat and think of getting more of a venturi effect by opening up the top of the backbore, which will increase air flow a bit. Possibly. You may be able to achieve this by leaving the throat alone and just creating a heightened venturi effect.
Big tonal effects with small equipment changes. Seems there is a missing element here: the human element.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:41 am Post subject: |
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So, if I'm reading your opening post correctly, it's the sensation of air movement you're primarily after - ie: more of a blow-through rather than blow-into kind of deal?
That would indeed seem to point to a bigger throat - but it's not really as simple as *just* opening up the throat a few sizes...
Just one you might get away with, but that's not going to give a drastic change in sensation, which I sense you're after - any more than that and you're going to need to do something else to balance out the change in intonation that making the throat longer will result in. That means either making the backbore bigger (by running the reamer in further) or shortening the backbore and shank (the basic Monette style piece).
Which of those would work best? You probably wouldn't know without trying both.
After that, I'm with Andy Del above - you're getting into contradictions a little bit, IMHO... Besides, you probably want to get one thing right before shooting for the next (assuming you need to!). |
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