Is looking for the perfect mouthpiece stupid or not?

[freimers]

So, is looking for the perfect mouthpiece and spending too much money doing it just stupid? Is it a substitute for practice and talent?

Derek Smith, Phil's father, played his whole career on the first mouthpiece he ever got and did pretty well for himself. Then there's Bill Vacchiano who said that finding the proper mouthpiece to fit your facial structure is a key to success. Which approach is correct? Stick with the MP you've got and make it work, the mouthpiece makes no difference, or, you need to find the mouthpiece that best fits your unique embouchure and helps you produce the sound that you need.

Like just about everybody I started on a Bach 7C with a Conn Director trumpet. I switched to a Bach 5B and Benge trumpet, just like my professor in college but didn't play my best until I switched to a Bach 1.5C and Bach 37 trumpet while studying with Seymour Rosenfeld for 10 years. I played that setup on Bb and C trumpet for 40 years first as a full-time player and then part-time. I can't play a cup smaller than a C, my lip touches the cup and shuts off the sound. I played a Bach 7C with a piccolo 117 backbore on my piccolo on the real high stuff but normally just used my 1.5C.

I started going to ITGs and got my first cornet 5 years ago. Everything I did trying to improve my playing resulted in me injuring my embouchure. No mouthpiece I tried on cornet "worked". I simply couldn't play cornet as well as trumpet. I could play a piece well on trumpet and then struggle mightily on cornet.

I was told that I sounded best on a smaller rim, 16.76(.660), by some great professionals so I switched to that size. Not sure if it's related, but within 2 years I injured my embouchure and couldn't play at all. I'm pretty much recovered now but the last piece of the puzzle was to go back to a 17.00(.670) rim. I had in my mind, wrongly, that bigger took more effort, strength and it never dawned on me that my problem could be the smaller rim. It turns out that for me, and I think most players with thicker lips, it's the opposite. It simply doesn't work if your lips don't fit the mouthpiece. I went to a masterclass on embouchure where the professor said that players with thin lips can play any size mouthpiece. Players with thicker lips don't have that luxury.

After 5 years of trying to find a cornet mouthpiece that works for me and spending too much money in the process, I finally found a mouthpiece that I can play. It turns out that quite a few of the problems I had playing cornet weren't me, it was the mouthpiece. On cornet it's a Curry 1.25VC Vintage Series and I'm back using my old 1.5C on trumpet. Trumpet and cornet playing feels pretty much the same to me now. What a relief, I couldn't be more happy about it.

So, I think Bill Vacchiano was MORE right. Some people, mostly those with thinner lips, can play any mouthpiece, but what does it sound like? You still have to consider the sound. Those of us with thicker lips have a more limited selection of pieces and is even more important.

Now I know the stories of great players with thick lips who used pee-shooters to play screeching big band stuff. I looked at the photos of a couple and although they have thick lips they also have wide faces with more teeth lined up almost straight behind the mouthpiece. Once they form their embouchure it appears to me that their lips have thinned out behind the mouthpiece allowing them to play small pieces.

What do you think?
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S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[JayKosta]

Devoting a lot of effort 'looking for the perfect mouthpiece' IS stupid - uh ... how do you know when you've found 'perfect'?

Looking for a mouthpiece that does not introduce problems, fits your face, and 'works' is worthwhile.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Andy Cooper]

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

Yes.
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz

[Rhondo]

When I started playing I had a Bach Corp. 5C that I think came with the used trumpet I bought, along with another shallower mouthpiece. I never thought about changing and the 5C just worked out fine for me.
Now coming back after years I’m still on my 5C. Tried a new 3C that seemed useable, but I’ll probably return it. I may try a 1 1/2C, but that will probably be it.

Yesterday I watched an interview with Jeff Purtle, who said Claude Gordon told him using one bad mouthpiece is better than using 2 good ones, and that he should stay on the one he had been using, and throw the others away.

If you’re able to sound good and feel comfortable on one mouthpiece, maybe just stick with it. I’m sure though there have been good trumpet players who have tried many.

[Brassnose]

I had to smile about the Claude Gordon comment — my teacher and I had a very similar discussion the other day and he essentially suggested the same thing: stick with one mouthpiece and, ideally, also stick with one horn (he’s better at it than me — since I’ve known him he’s only been on two horns and two mouthpieces).

As far as „perfect mouthpiece“ goes: I happened to find my best fit so far w/o looking for a new piece. Pre pandemic I visited Martin Böhmes workshop to discuss something and he asked me if if I could „try something out“ (AR Resonance pieces). They fit even better than the piece I was playing at the time and I haven’t looked back since. But then again I have only played four mouthpieces as my main pieces in 40+ years of playing (tested things out, yes, but returned to the main pieces quickly).
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[stuartissimo]

Let’s reverse the question: “Is doing the same thing your entire life and never trying something new stupid?”

I think the actual answer for most players lies somewhere inbetween. Going for perfection may not be very effective in the long run, but sticking to what you have that doesn’t work, just because someone else found a good mouthpiece in their first pick, doesn’t seem sensible either.

As long as you don’t obsess about it, and don’t spend too much money, there doesn’t seem to be any harm in trying new things. Just my opinion of course.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Louise Finch]

[Irving]

"Players with thick lips need to use a large mouthpiece" is an absurd idea. What evidence backs up this statement? There are so many successful players out there with thick lips that use medium sized and even small mouthpieces, especially in commercial and jazz music. Lee Morgan is a good example. He used a 6C and had thick lips. Can players with thick lips play on a larger mouthpiece? Yes! Do they have to? No! Whatever works.

[freimers]

Thank you Louise.

What I left out of my post was actually my own opinion which is looking for a perfect anything IS stupid. Buy tell that to GR. I guess I keep picking on them because their sales guy was rude to me, but that is their mantra, they know all the angles, etc., and can custom fit you for the perfect piece. I think its ridiculous.

My opinion is that you have to find something that works and stick with it! Until it doesn't. And then be very, very careful before switching to make the problem is your equipment.

Some additional thoughts.

When trying mouthpieces start big, which will almost always feel comfortable and then get smaller until it's not.

I do think that sticking with the mouthpiece that came with the horn works at the start for most because all horns come with basically a Bach 7C mouthpiece and a good all around MP, but not everyone. Bud Herseth played on his Bach 7C for years until his car accident and then it didn't work anymore. He was smart enough to figure out that he needed to change his setup to fit his new facial structure. He went bigger, not smaller. A

I think some students are unsuccessful starting out because of the MP and either quit or are given a baritone. Maybe have a Bach 1C for them to try before giving up.

All mouthpieces are a compromise but don't compromise your embouchure to fit the mouthpiece. I think the compromise should only be in the sound produced when playing normally and relaxed. Vacchiano said he always had another MP in his pocket which was the one he sounded best on, but, he couldn't use it for everything he needed to play.

It takes time, a couple of weeks, to get acclimated to a new MP. After a short while I started doing funky things with my embouchure to make my new Pickett top with a special backbore work instead of stepping back and realizing that it didn't fit me very well after all. I assumed that I was the problem but in this instance it wasn't me.

I stuck with my 1.5C Bach piece for 40 years but got caught up in the hype from GR, Pickett, etc., at ITG. Big mistake. I was playing fine and had no need to change, just needed to practice more and get rid of some bad habits that creeped into my playing. In this case the problem was me. If I started with a Bach 1.5C rim size on cornet I would have saved myself a lot of time, frustration and money.

Embouchures do change, however. My second trumpet teacher was a top freelancer in Philly for years, came from Eastman and always played a Benge with a Bach 5B. Then I saw him doing ads for Monette so I asked him if they were paying him to switch and he said no. He said he woke up one morning and just couldn't play the 5B and his sound was terrible. He had to search for answers, something changed as he aged.

There are players who are looking for the MP that's going to give them a double C and solve all of their problem and no lack of MP manufacturers like GR that will rob them blind. At the same time, I know a player who can only play double Cs and lead a big band with one specific MP and horn. This is confusing as there are players who swear by their GR pieces. I just don't know.

Then there's the quality of manufacture. I switched to a Bach 1.5C years ago to achieve a better orchestral sound that I wasn't getting on my Benge and 5B. I was just going to buy a 1C but a friend told me that you have to try them all out so he took me to old Zapf's in Philly. I tried out 1C, 1.25C, 1.5C, 3C and 5Cs. We narrowed it down to a 1.5C but Zapf's had 5 of them. 3 didn't play at all and I picked the best of the other two. They were all markedly different. My guess is that the machining today is much better.

[freimers]

I agree. I never forked out money for a GR mouthpiece or went through their process which is supposed to result in the "perfect" fit and all the. I know someone who got a GR and, IMHO, sounds worse, but he loves it.

Peter Pickett and Cliff Blackburn were the two that helped me pick a Pickett 3BC/28 at an ITG. I'm sure they were right, that's why I trusted the change But, l stuck with it too long after I started experience problems, pain and then it was too late. I learned the hard way that you have to give it time, pain is your body telling you to stop, and sound isn't the only qualifier..

[Louise Finch]

[Seymor B Fudd]

Louise wrote that " In my opinion you need to be at an appropriate stage of your development, have a good reason for changing, and also need to change one thing at a time, which is not always easy if changing from one manufacturer to another".
Couldn´t agree more!

So then the question arises: which mouthpiece is the ultimate when beginning to play the trumpet/cornet?

I have no idea how teachers tackle this questions but from my viewpoint there should be a testing period during which the pupil tries different sizes etc etc. Not so in my case - I was handed a cornet and a mouthpiece attached to it, a Cosicup, can´t remember the size. No one bothered and I didn´t know. Then I found a Salvation Army no 1 and played this some years up til I got the feeling that it was too narrow. So when I bought my King in 1970 and was told that a Bach 1 1/4 C would be just fine I bought the idea and the package. Worked tremendously well during almost 30 years. Lead and you name it.
I also played a V B 1 1/4 C (cornet version) front row brass band.


Then I got the (silly) idea that a new mouthpiece would make me develop further so the Safari began. Ending up with variants of Schilke 14, meaning diameter 17+. During the Safari I found a mouthpiece with outstanding sound, the Stork VM6, but sadly enough 16,25 mm so in the long run it didn´t fit me.
I also found it difficult to use anything but the same type of mouthpiece when combining trumpet with front row brass band. Took me some years to realize though. Meaning rim, diameter but not necessarily depth.

As I see it, there is no such thing as the universally perfect mouthpience.
However there are mouthpieces that fit your particular set up more or less well. Variables I think of are diameter, rims, alpha angle etc. etc.

And then, as Louise points out, there are certain settings when a switch from the legit piece might be feasible; playing lead is one. So for me same diameter, but a different (more shallow or more V-ish) cup is the solution.

freimers - your post is really focussing on many aspects that really matters! As does Louise´s.

Again the old (French)proverb chacun à son goût!

BTW: the other night I couldn´t find my Schilke 14 B at the big band rehearsal so I had to borrow a Vincent Bach 1 1/4 C. My section mate had 2 of them but they were utterly different I used the one which probably was rather close to my original and guess what?? My range didn´t detoriate but - I grew a bit tired after a while. But it worked astonishingly well. After 20 years...
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[Louise Finch]

[Rhondo]

I wonder to what degree Bach mouthpieces are inconsistent.

Recently I found a Bach Corp. 5C labeled the same as the one I already had. The 2 of them feel exactly the same to me and play the same.

I ordered a brand new 5C and it was slightly smaller and not as playable for me, but that was somewhat expected from what I had read here. Within different eras what is their consistency?

[longtermparking]

The important thing IMO is mostly to just get pretty close. The right ballpark in terms of diameter for you, a rim shape that feels reasonable, and an appropriate cup/underpart for the type of playing you're doing will get you 90% of the way there, and covers most of the major issues you can have with the mouthpiece. With those three things in place there should be no significant barriers to development, assuming mouthpiece and horn are both in good working condition.

At the semi-pro and up level, a little bit of fine-tuning beyond that to address specific issues with response, intonation, slotting, optimal resistance, more subtle nuances in sound, etc. can be useful. That kind of thing is probably best done at a maker's shop so you can really test small incremental changes, though most of us end up stuck with trial and error over time.

You can spend roughly infinite money seeking the mystical perfect rim shape, the most glorious sound, the easiest blow, a little more range even within the general baseline, but returns diminish quickly in my experience and it becomes easy to go in circles. Even the best possible fit is still a compromise of some sort.

[Dayton]

We all want perfect, of course, but I think it sets the bar too high. There are too many mouthpieces to try, and often many possible variations on each single model. Then there are many trumpet models, each with their own characteristics for which a particular mouthpiece design characteristic might work better or worse.

Also, "perfect" implies that it works best for you in all situations. The "perfect" mouthpiece for when you are playing second trumpet parts in an orchestra is likely different from when you are playing first parts in a big hand....

And then, of course, our faces change over time. We get braces, a chipped tooth, our lips thin...and as we change what might work best for us also changes.

So, if we aim for perfection we'll likely be frustrated. On the other hand, having 100 mouthpieces in rotation to meet every conceivable playing situation is probably not viable either. A good solution for most of us is probably somewhere in between: One mouthpiece that meets our general playing needs well and then one or more mouthpieces that better meet our specialized playing needs as they emerge.

[Louise Finch]

[Seymor B Fudd]

Louise!
Rethinking my post I must admit that I think that you are right when pointing out how beginners might get the best start. A smaller mpc, observing how the child goes on. Time and skillful teaching will tell - when the basics are installed!
My initial point of view has more to do with the fact that I was 15 when I began. Big mouthed even then.....Plus the fact that I had to take care of my development all by myself....
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[Louise Finch]