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Trumpetstud
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Joined: 17 Mar 2021
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 Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:22 am Post subject: Couesnon Flugel |
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Well, I finally got my Couesnon!! š„³š¤©
Itās a ā71 scratched raw brass. I played my first note on it and man! It was an awesome feeling. |
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Jon Arnold
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Joined: 07 Jan 2002
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Very cool. Just got done practicing on my Couesnon. I have paired mine with and ACB 3MDF and it is a great setup for me. |
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Trumpetstud
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Joined: 17 Mar 2021
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Iām using a Stork 3FL |
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Rhondo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 214
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Couesnon Flugel |
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| Trumpetstud wrote: | Well, I finally got my Couesnon!! š„³š¤©
Itās a ā71 scratched raw brass. I played my first note on it and man! It was an awesome feeling. |
Which model?
I had a Bach 183 I loved. Most of the other flugelhorns I hear played online sound too close to trumpets, or the players are approaching it too much like trumpet. Yamaha 8310 and 8315 *might sound closer to my old Bach. I like the sound Steve on Horntrader gets on the Couesnons, but donāt know much about them. |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 473
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I have owned two of these; one being a very fine, original 1945 vintage, and the other, an early 1950s example.
Sold both.
I know how to get "that sound" (appropriate mouthpiece, "approach"/ "sound in my head", etc.).
INTONATION was the major bug-a-boo. I'm an "old-school lipper", and get most horns reasonably in pitch, while playing.
Not so, with the Couesnon Flugels. Maddening  .
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Trumpetstud
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Joined: 17 Mar 2021
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Well Iām not actually sure what model. It just says
Couesnon
Paris
made in France
81413 |
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Doug Elliott
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Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1172
Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:19 am Post subject: |
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If anybody has the GR / Melk Couesnon Flugelhorn Leadpipe I'd like to hear your experience with it.
I have a 76xxx serial number and it seems to have a larger bell throat than others. Did they make different models but not identify them? |
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Rhondo
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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There is a very long thread on these horns here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49566&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
ā¦ and many more on this site I havenāt gotten to. The fires at Couesnon destroyed the recorded history of these horns that has resulted in much detective work to gather information.
There were variations over the years. Of the horns stamped āMonopoleā, one version was a one piece bell, most were not.
I ordered a Monopole yesterday with serial number 815xx. In the long thread someone who was very happy with their horn had one 4 serial numbers away from mine, so Iāll see.
One poster seemed to think the original leadpipe is best. Charlie Melk responded to my question about his leadpipe, saying it improves intonation and responsiveness āsomewhatā. I plan to play the horn as-is to see first if I like it.
From detective work a letter stamped on the middle valve was to identify the worker craftsperson who worked on that particular horn, or possibly on the valve block. |
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TJTS
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Joined: 06 Jan 2023
Posts: 84
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | If anybody has the GR / Melk Couesnon Flugelhorn Leadpipe I'd like to hear your experience with it.
I have a 76xxx serial number and it seems to have a larger bell throat than others. Did they make different models but not identify them? |
I use the GR lead pipe in my Couesnon. The biggest advantage for me is that I can use a standard large morse taper Patrick 5c.
The intonation on mine is really good. I pull the 3rd slide out a quarter of an inch and pitch is pretty spot on.
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Rhondo
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| TJTS wrote: | | Doug Elliott wrote: | If anybody has the GR / Melk Couesnon Flugelhorn Leadpipe I'd like to hear your experience with it.
I have a 76xxx serial number and it seems to have a larger bell throat than others. Did they make different models but not identify them? |
I use the GR lead pipe in my Couesnon. The biggest advantage for me is that I can use a standard large morse taper Patrick 5c.
The intonation on mine is really good. I pull the 3rd slide out a quarter of an inch and pitch is pretty spot on. |
I'm unclear as to what type of mouthpiece the stock Couesnon leadpipes are made for.
My horn is coming with a Bach 7C flugel mouthpiece in the case, so I'm guessing that was probably what the previous owner was using (the sale is from a shop). |
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TJTS
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Joined: 06 Jan 2023
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhondo wrote: | | TJTS wrote: | | Doug Elliott wrote: | If anybody has the GR / Melk Couesnon Flugelhorn Leadpipe I'd like to hear your experience with it.
I have a 76xxx serial number and it seems to have a larger bell throat than others. Did they make different models but not identify them? |
I use the GR lead pipe in my Couesnon. The biggest advantage for me is that I can use a standard large morse taper Patrick 5c.
The intonation on mine is really good. I pull the 3rd slide out a quarter of an inch and pitch is pretty spot on. |
I'm unclear as to what type of mouthpiece the stock Couesnon leadpipes are made for.
My horn is coming with a Bach 7C flugel mouthpiece in the case, so I'm guessing that was probably what the previous owner was using (the sale is from a shop). |
The stock Couesnon taper is a French style straight taper.
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www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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Doug Elliott
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Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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"French style straight taper" is almost no taper in the receiver, maybe .008 per inch. So a mouthpiece needs to approximately match that, or have an untapered shank with little taper added just to stop it.
I made a short leadpipe for mine many years ago and I don't know what happened to the original leadpipe. I've just been wondering if it would be worth getting the Melk leadpipe.
I'm a trombonist, I don't actually use this horn but I might someday.
The 2nd valve casing has an N stamped on the back. |
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Rhondo
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | "French style straight taper" is almost no taper in the receiver, maybe .008 per inch. So a mouthpiece needs to approximately match that, or have an untapered shank with little taper added just to stop it.
I made a short leadpipe for mine many years ago and I don't know what happened to the original leadpipe. I've just been wondering if it would be worth getting the Melk leadpipe. |
Doesnāt the leadpipe need to be soldered to switch?
I think the only way to know if the Melk leadpipe would be better is to try it. He states that it improves intonation somewhat and is a bit more responsive. |
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1927
Location: WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, a French shank actually has a short tapered section followed by a long, virtually straight section. I took a picture of one of my French shank flugelhorn pieces to illustrate this:
The section labeled with a "T" between the first two arrows is the tapered part, and the section labeled with an "S" between the second and third arrows is the straight part.
Both sections get accepted by a French taper receiver, as I illustrate with this picture of the same mouthpiece inserted into my Mahillon flugelhorn:
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Halflip
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Location: WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhondo wrote: | | Doesnāt the leadpipe need to be soldered to switch? |
No -- the adjustable 'tuning bit' part of the leadpipe is what gets swapped. All you need to do is loosen the thumbscrew that locks the tuning bit, pull the bit out completely, and insert a different one (assuming that the diameter and length of the replacement tuning bit tube are correct, of course).
| Rhondo wrote: | | I think the only way to know if the Melk leadpipe would be better is to try it. He states that it improves intonation somewhat and is a bit more responsive. |
I think the original Couesnon leadpipe is tapered (NOTE: I'm not talking about the receiver here, but rather the long tuning bit tube after the receiver), while Charlie's leadpipe is straight. The Couesnon tapered leadpipe makes it extremely sensitive to mouthpiece characteristics when it comes to playing in tune, while a straight flugel leadpipe allows better intonation across a wider variety of mouthpiece specs (basically cup shapes, throat sizes, and backbores).
I have Melk/GR leadpipes in my Couesnon, Noblet, Olds, and Reynolds flugels, and I have had uniformly positive results in terms of playing characteristics. The intonation and response are improved without sacrificing tone or range.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Doug Elliott
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Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I know that the original leadpipe was a straight tube, no internal taper. I have measured a few other flugel leadpipes and they have all been straight tubes. That is not the norm for any other modern brass instrument - a leadpipe is normally tapered inside to go from the small mouthpiece exit to the larger instrument bore size. I was hoping the Melk leadpipe would be better designed.
I really want to hear from players who actually have it, not just speculation. |
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Halflip
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Posts: 1927
Location: WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | | I know that the original leadpipe was a straight tube, no internal taper. |
I may be mistaken, but I thought I heard that the original Couesnon leadpipe was tapered, and the Melk pipe improved upon this by being straight. You could ask Charlie himself to get a better readout on what his improvement entails.
| Doug Elliott wrote: | | I really want to hear from players who actually have it, not just speculation. |
See the text I added to my last post in a subsequent edit. I do actually have Melk leadpipes in several of my flugelhorns.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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TJTS
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Joined: 06 Jan 2023
Posts: 84
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | I know that the original leadpipe was a straight tube, no internal taper. I have measured a few other flugel leadpipes and they have all been straight tubes. That is not the norm for any other modern brass instrument - a leadpipe is normally tapered inside to go from the small mouthpiece exit to the larger instrument bore size. I was hoping the Melk leadpipe would be better designed.
I really want to hear from players who actually have it, not just speculation. |
Iām a player and I just told you. When you buy a pipe from Charlie he asks for measurements of the tube receiver for the entire leadpipe to ensure it is the right length for the best fitment and intonation.
For me, intonation is improved and it plays better with a more modern style shank.
My stock Couesnon pipe is a straight taper as well as the GR. The GR pipe is slightly longer than stock Couesnon so it fits farther into receiver tube into knuckle of valve block.
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Michael | Owner
www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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Halflip
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Posts: 1927
Location: WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| TJTS wrote: | | My stock Couesnon pipe is a straight taper as well as the GR. |
Like I said, I may be mistaken. In any case, I have Charlie's leadpipes in four of my flugels, and they have yielded uniformly positive results.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Rhondo
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I notice he has a description of it on his website under āOther productsā.
http://charliesbrassworks.com/products_new.php
What exactly is a standard GR taper flugelhorn mouthpiece? Does that include Bach FL mouthpieces? |
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