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Robert P
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 Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | I'm not saying it didn't work for you. I am saying, for the beginner/comeback player (and for a number of more advanced players), it is simply too much information to hold in one's mind while they are figuring it out (again). Your "list" of things to pay attention to are all valid but, in my opinion, there are quite a number of tools/diagnostic exercises, to bypass the compilation of the compendium. |
I have to wonder what it is you think one should be "figuring out" if you have an aversion to one becoming aware of these details and think it's too much to deal with.
It's more of an awareness running as a background program, a foundation upon which one can build their focus on the music and their sound.
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Rhondo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | abontrumpet wrote: | | I'm not saying it didn't work for you. I am saying, for the beginner/comeback player (and for a number of more advanced players), it is simply too much information to hold in one's mind while they are figuring it out (again). Your "list" of things to pay attention to are all valid but, in my opinion, there are quite a number of tools/diagnostic exercises, to bypass the compilation of the compendium. |
I have to wonder what it is you think one should be "figuring out" if you have an aversion to one becoming aware of these details and think it's too much to deal with.
It's more of an awareness running as a background program, a foundation upon which one can build their focus on the music and their sound. |
Just a suggestion- Click on that box labeled "pm". Or let it go. |
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andybharms
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:41 am Post subject: |
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I haven’t thoroughly read the replies, but I know and can relate to this problem. As a college trumpet teacher, I see it with young people and even professionals every day.
Simply put, getting better is not always related to how much we practice, how much we want to improve, or even what we practice. It is how. Bottom line, if we are not practicing the easy delivery of air and a free ringing sound, there is a good chance we are practicing a maladaptation. There are some really easy maneuvers you can do to get closer, but by far the most effective one I’ve come across is simply air patterns, singing, then playing. If someone does those things reliably during every session, I would bet on them every time.
One other thought. It is handy for me to think about practicing/improving as the process of outsmarting myself… beating my own bad habits. That reframes the issue for me from one of volume and force to a more nuanced, more intelligent approach to practice.
As always, if this resonates with you, feel free to reach out.
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Last edited by andybharms on Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | I have to wonder what it is you think one should be "figuring out" if you have an aversion to one becoming aware of these details and think it's too much to deal with.
It's more of an awareness running as a background program, a foundation upon which one can build their focus on the music and their sound. |
There's clearly something lost in translation. I've addressed all these points in every post.
| Rhondo wrote: | | Just a suggestion- Click on that box labeled "pm". Or let it go. |
Please do, this is going to get exhausting for everybody. |
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huntman10
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe anyone has yet suggested the importance of a careful warmup routine daily, and when returning to practice after an hour off the mouthpiece. I believe that for any player returning to playing after years off, or for beginning brass players, a more thorough warmup than that for a player who is more current, but all players will benefit from a daily startup routine.
I would suggest long tones to start, range (don't get too carried away), lip flexibility, pedal tones, and then scale segments (yeah, Caruso light, if you will.). The disciplined approach, in my honest opinion, will go a long way toward aiding with more consistency. Work up your own routine as you progress.
I know, even though I have never really been away from playing more than a few weeks for the last 60 years, if I let my warmup routine slide, my practice efficacy gets a lot worse, even if I am playing regularly.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| andybharms wrote: | | but by far the most effective one I’ve come across is simply air patterns, singing, then playing. If someone does those things reliably during every session, I would bet on them every time. |
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Does this method also work for players who use physical techniques that cause problems or limitations (not limited to air delivery, phrasing, style, etc., but simple 'playing mechanics')?
Do those players recognize the deficiency of their technique?
Do they know what technique (functioning) would be better - and how to go about acquiring it?
If the students do improve, are they aware of what they are doing differently? Can they explain 'what I used to do' and 'what I do now that is better'?
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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rhatheway
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| huntman10 wrote: | I don't believe anyone has yet suggested the importance of a careful warmup routine daily, and when returning to practice after an hour off the mouthpiece. I believe that for any player returning to playing after years off, or for beginning brass players, a more thorough warmup than that for a player who is more current, but all players will benefit from a daily startup routine.
I would suggest long tones to start, range (don't get too carried away), lip flexibility, pedal tones, and then scale segments (yeah, Caruso light, if you will.). The disciplined approach, in my honest opinion, will go a long way toward aiding with more consistency. Work up your own routine as you progress.
I know, even though I have never really been away from playing more than a few weeks for the last 60 years, if I let my warmup routine slide, my practice efficacy gets a lot worse, even if I am playing regularly. |
What you say makes sense to me. I typically start with the Caruso 6 notes exercise, then do some lip flexibility exercises (but not too high), some pedal tones, some arpeggios, and maybe a few scales before starting working on music. I know I'm not 100% consistent doing that, so probably need to add a bit more discipline into my routine.
But overall, this discussion has provided me with a lot of good information and insight, so thank you to everyone who has contributed to it!
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | andybharms wrote: | | but by far the most effective one I’ve come across is simply air patterns, singing, then playing. If someone does those things reliably during every session, I would bet on them every time. |
(1) Does this method also work for players who use physical techniques that cause problems or limitations (not limited to air delivery, phrasing, style, etc., but simple 'playing mechanics')?
(2) Do those players recognize the deficiency of their technique?
(3) Do they know what technique (functioning) would be better - and how to go about acquiring it?
(4) If the students do improve, are they aware of what they are doing differently? (5) Can they explain 'what I used to do' and 'what I do now that is better'? |
The disclaimer is: the have vs. have nots have mostly weeded themselves out by the college level, depending on the college.
(1) The question is how many people ACTUALLY have physical techniques that cause problems or limitations. In other words, how many peoples "limitating physical techniques" could be "cured" via air patterns, singing, then playing? Based on your questions, it is probably more than you think.
These techniques can ALWAYS be used without detrimental effect, but obviously if there is no improvement and there are discernible cues that indicate a technical deficiency, you address those deficiencies.
I watched Guillaume Jehl (principal trumpet Berlin, second at the time) conducted about 15 hours of masterclasses with trumpeters of varying levels. His ONLY teaching method was "air patterns, hum (instead of sing), then play." EVERYBODY improved a great deal. The threshold for a functional embouchure isn't that high.
(2) Technique could mean a number of things. If they are not executing the "free delivery of air" that is a deficiency in technique. Awareness, as a human being, to the difference of how easy something is, is quite obvious.
(3) Kind of in line with #2. If those things improve their playing, then yes, they know how to acquire it. Singing (pitch), delivery of air, and achieving a great sound are lifelong endeavors.
(4/5) Again I think you're focusing on embouchure technique rather than the approach to the trumpet. When we think of form, there are multiple forms that take place when playing trumpet. There is the mental and physical approach and then the embouchure technique. So if I were to answer in reference to mental and physical, yes they are aware. If I answer about the improvements in embouchure technique that results from "BETTER BRASS HABITS" then they could be, but they could also not be. There are many players who make their whole career knowing nothing about their embouchure technique. The only ones that really need to be well versed in it are teachers (IMO). |
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andybharms
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does this method also work for players who use physical techniques that cause problems or limitations (not limited to air delivery, phrasing, style, etc., but simple 'playing mechanics')? |
It’s not a method really. It’s just a starting point. But what playing mechanics are there? Blow through your leadpipe and tell me how much resistance you feel. That is the resistance of the system. There might be *some* harmonic resistance, but the rest of what we feel is us clutching something somewhere. How do we zero those meters? Singing and air patterns work great.
| Quote: | | Do those players recognize the deficiency of their technique? |
Well I can’t help someone who doesn’t think they need helping. But usually it’s pretty obvious.
| Quote: | | Do they know what technique (functioning) would be better - and how to go about acquiring it? |
Usually it’s a “technique” that’s the problem. Good playing is usually a focus on sound and ease. That’s the angel on our shoulder. Everything else is what I jokingly call “the devil.”
| Quote: | | If the students do improve, are they aware of what they are doing differently? Can they explain 'what I used to do' and 'what I do now that is better'? |
They don’t always understand the physical difference, and neither do I (although, as a trumpet idiot who figured this stuff out only after doing it wrong for a long time, I usually do). But if they have a path to success, what does the physical stuff matter? Sometimes it is helpful to go back and figure out what changes physically, but not always. Sometimes a physical cue helps. There are lots of paths to trumpet salvation. But a vibrant sound and ease are definitely not optional components, and tension is their mortal enemy.
| Quote: | | he threshold for a functional embouchure isn't that high. |
This is so so true. It’s just a flap of skin. Any air should engage it. I visualize this by blowing on a loose piece of paper. It flaps. Boom, sound.
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andybharms
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry… one other thing.
I think this equation changes when you are talking about true big band lead playing. That’s not a thing I do and I am not shy about saying that I don’t fully understand it. In theory it shouldn’t be much different, but I think their physical tool set is different.
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Destructo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: |
I watched Guillaume Jehl (principal trumpet Berlin, second at the time) conducted about 15 hours of masterclasses with trumpeters of varying levels. His ONLY teaching method was "air patterns, hum (instead of sing), then play." EVERYBODY improved a great deal. The threshold for a functional embouchure isn't that high. |
I've honestly never really understood 'air patterns' as a thing. For articulation, sure, but as a blanket cure, I personally don't really get it. How does blowing air teach me anything about what to do with my face/tongue/jaw once the mouthpiece and instrument is in place?
Surely it only works if your muscle memory without the instrument is as somehow more accurate without than with the instrument involved? Otherwise you could be 'blowing' notes in the wrong octave for all anyone would know.
Strangely enough, even though I sing and humm things I'm working on all the time, I don't actually find it that helpful unless the problem really is as simple as I don't have the notes in my ear. That does happen with some stuff, things with big or lots of odd intervals etc but it's usually super obvious when that is the problem because I go "hurr... was that right? Let me double check that... oooohhhh". Then I slap myself in the forehead for comic effect. Probably 90% of the time, the issue is something else.
What actually helps me the most with a lot of these sorts of issues - and maybe will help others? - is what I call "pop tones", where you play the note purely by pushing air out with the tongue alone, no air from the lungs at all. This really seems to help/force me to dial in the whole embouchure to produce those notes. After I do that, often the notes feel much closer together or I have to adjust less, sometimes it's the jaw position is off. So I often practise things that way, with pop tones, then I just add the air from the lungs back in, and I don't really think about the air, it knows what to do because everything else is dialed in.
It also prevents you from straining with any part of your body while learning the notes. So you don't reinforce bad stuff there. I've found it pretty helpful personally!
It's worth trying with any tricky passages. If you can play the trouble spot three times (slowly) in a row with pop tones, you'll probably find you can just add the air back in and it'll be there. If you can't, you're probably not ready to add the air yet. |
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Trumpjerele
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Imitating the sound of the masters, singing and playing seems to me fundamental to work on musicality, but to correct a diffusional embouchure does not seem useful.
For the OP this idea comes from the Chicago school, it is a very widespread pedagogy, and I would dare to say majority at least in the classical environment. Like Robert P, it did not work for me, but it is true that there are many professional musicians who have Arnold Jacob and his books on an altar.
If you spend enough time on this forum you will realize that there is no one way to overcome the difficulties of the instrument. It will be your decision to follow one path or another or a mixture of ideas from different sites. Good luck and enjoy the process!!!
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:28 am Post subject: |
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You insist I didn't pay enough attention to your post. Sure I did.
I'll expand on my previous responses.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | I would advise to be very focused on the mechanics of what happens when things do work, *all* the various aspects of what's going on - pressure/pressure distribution, teeth gap/alignment/horn angle, what's going on with the muscles of the lips & face, lip overlap of the edges of the teeth, tongue & oral cavity, throat, use of air.
Some people poo poo this and insist you should focus on practice without having an awareness of the mechanics of what's going on. |
Look, no 10 year old starting trumpet thinks about this stuff and can achieve great results relatively quickly. Yes, there is a degree of luck involved with a beginner with no instruction but this is severe overkill especially if you don't know what "correct" is (like Doug Elliott mentions). All you're doing is analyzing "what is" and you have no idea "what should be." That's where the "poo poo" comes in, not the analysis itself. |
The still mysterious 10 yo you invoke aside, "correct" is what's happening when things are working and sound right. If someone knows enough to recognize when things *aren't* working that means they're aware enough to recognize when they are.
| Quote: | | It is my unconfirmed/developing opinion that almost all of the analysis in Robert P's post can be erased if you just put the mouthpiece in the best spot. |
.smh
Since you've had no problem directly impugning my input, I'll say this is one of the most absurd, implausible bits of advice I've heard - it completely ignores all other elements. Issues I had at one time similar to rhatheway's went way beyond mouthpiece placement.
What I believe will help is doing things consistently the way that gets good results, the way to do that is to have an awareness of the elements involved. The horn doesn't change, only the player and what the player does changes - stray from a narrow path and things don't go the way you want them to. It may be confusing to you, it isn't to me and hopefully won't be to rhatheway.
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Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
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Chinese Flugel |
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Rhondo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Feel like I’m having deja vu all over again |
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andybharms
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I've honestly never really understood 'air patterns' as a thing. For articulation, sure, but as a blanket cure, I personally don't really get it. How does blowing air teach me anything about what to do with my face/tongue/jaw once the mouthpiece and instrument is in place?
Surely it only works if your muscle memory without the instrument is as somehow more accurate without than with the instrument involved? Otherwise you could be 'blowing' notes in the wrong octave for all anyone would know. |
If this approach works for you, that’s all you need to know!
But, my question is, what muscles do you think you need to play the trumpet? While there is definitely a neuro-muscular memory thing, that connection is more likely to degenerate if the focus is on the tactile feeling and not some outside result (vibrant sound)… in my experience, at least.
The problem I’ve had with any question of embouchure is that it very quickly degenerates into facial micromanagement, which is a no win scenario. It is helpful for me to tinker a little bit, but it is a sound- and ease-driven activity.
There are so many much smarter people than me, so I have to end the conversation with “take it or leave it,” but I do hope it is as helpful for someone who is reading through this as it was for me a handful of years ago, when I figured out what so many of my teachers were probably trying to tell me all along!
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | You insist I didn't pay enough attention to your post. Sure I did.
I'll expand on my previous responses.
(1) The still mysterious 10 yo you invoke aside, "correct" is what's happening when things are working and sound right. (2) If someone knows enough to recognize when things *aren't* working that means they're aware enough to recognize when they are.
| Quote: | | It is my unconfirmed/developing opinion that almost all of the analysis in Robert P's post can be erased if you just put the mouthpiece in the best spot. |
(3) .smh
(4) Since you've had no problem directly impugning my input, I'll say this is one of the most absurd, implausible bits of advice I've heard - it completely ignores all other elements. Issues I had at one time similar to rhatheway's went way beyond mouthpiece placement.
(5) What I believe will help is doing things consistently the way that gets good results, the way to do that is to have an awareness of the elements involved. The horn doesn't change, only the player and what the player does changes - stray from a narrow path and things don't go the way you want them to. It may be confusing to you, it isn't to me and hopefully won't be to rhatheway. |
(1) I've clarified the 10 year old, so if you had read my responses, it wouldn't be mysterious anymore
(2) I address this in my most previous post in response to JayKosta. Check that out and then get back to me.
(3) lol
(4) Anything is possible, just gotta open your mind baby. Joking aside, without seeing/hearing the person your advice is just as implausible as mine. That is self-evident. It shouldn't be a surprise how much placement affects the system, so I question your expertise.
(5) "What I believe will help is doing things consistently"; boom, you just repeated my thesis statement/overall point. "Only the player and what the player does changes"; boom you just made my point again, sensation is variable.
Hopefully that cleared up any confusion.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:55 am; edited 3 times in total |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Destructo wrote: | I've honestly never really understood 'air patterns' as a thing.
What actually helps me the most with a lot of these sorts of issues . . . |
andybharms kind of gets into it. But with air-patterns, you are training your "swing" to be consistent in all scenarios. A lot of people struggle with keeping their approach consistent which leads to disfunction in the rest of the system. There is not much difference in how you blow across the octaves which is why it is effective. By improving your "swing" you give your face the best possible scenario to function. Without it, it's a losing game.
As far as singing, based on your response, I can almost guarantee that you cannot sing what you are about to play with 100% accuracy (musical accuracy, pitch accuracy, etc.). You should be recording yourself singing and see if it is exactly what you want to be producing on the trumpet. Be honest with yourself.
Based on your description of "pop tones" (which is a totally viable tool btw), it seems like you may not have had "world class" instruction from somebody who is well versed in taking a player from point A to point B in an effective manner. Until you experience it, it is hard to believe that you can develop non-analytical methods to bypass analytical baggage. I think that goes for MANY people here.
That being said, depending on the player, I will definitely get into the nitty-gritty and address single points of focus at a time. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| andybharms wrote: | ... but it is a sound- and ease-driven activity.
...
when I figured out what so many of my teachers were probably trying to tell me all along! |
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don't leave us hanging like that!
What were those teachers trying to tell you?
i.e. any guidance about what needs to be done / changed to facilitate the production of sound with ease.
For me, about 60 years ago a teacher wrote a few comments in my method book about rim pressure (upper / lower) distribution depending on range. I didn't recognize or understand it then, and just continued with 'my own way' for a long time. I wish that teacher had been more persistent addressing 'good mechanics'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpjerele wrote: | | For the OP this idea comes from the Chicago school, it is a very widespread pedagogy, and I would dare to say majority at least in the classical environment. Like Robert P, it did not work for me, but it is true that there are many professional musicians who have Arnold Jacob and his books on an altar |
Anybody who talks about the Chicago School and its lack of analysis, doesn't understand Chicago School. They understand two words "song and wind" and the bastardized way it is taught.
Northwestern has access to a massive number of Cichowicz audio archives. Listen to all of them, read Song and Wind, and read the texts by Kristian Steenstrup. Then you can discount the Chicago School. I do not regularly discount other "schools" of thought because I do not have enough knowledge of them. I discourage, what are in my view, counterproductive approaches by people that do not have enough "knowledgeable framework" to get out of their own way.
Here are the archives: https://dc.library.northwestern.edu/collections/5c9eaad8-afb8-4224-ae1a-cffddc731109
Last edited by abontrumpet on Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | ... it seems like you may not have had "world class" instruction from somebody who is well versed in taking a player from point A to point B in an effective manner. Until you experience it, it is hard to believe that you can develop non-analytical methods to bypass analytical baggage. I think that goes for MANY people here.
That being said, depending on the player, I will definitely get into the nitty-gritty and address single points of focus at a time. |
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For general pedagogy it shouldn't be expected or required that a teacher is 'world class' - that is too high a requirement to satisfy the number of students who get basic instruction, including all the nitty-gritty that appear.
Recognizing and addressing all the 'single points of focus' should be a basic part of 'good teaching' - might not be done with specific micro-analysis, but shouldn't be overlooked with the hope of 'it will correct itself eventually'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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