| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| JayKosta wrote: | | For general pedagogy it shouldn't be expected or required that a teacher is 'world class' - that is too high a requirement to satisfy the number of students who get basic instruction, including all the nitty-gritty that appear. |
I'm not sure what your point is here. If you're saying that the level of teacher should be better, I agree. But my point was - if you truly experience teaching from a "world-class" teacher, you gain a different perspective on what is possible to be transmitted through various "techniques."
| JayKosta wrote: | | Recognizing and addressing all the 'single points of focus' should be a basic part of 'good teaching' - might not be done with specific micro-analysis, but shouldn't be overlooked with the hope of 'it will correct itself eventually'. |
That's what I said, yes. But it is highly dependent. I had a beginner (happened to be around 10 years old LOL) who's brother "taught" him how to play the trumpet. I saw lots of hesitation in the way they played on the first lesson and some embouchure disfunction (predetermined notion about how they should be forming their embouchure). I instructed the student to do nothing but make loud crass sounds while wiggling the valves punctuated by one nice long note at the end of it. The next week, the student could make a professional sound and had a completely different embouchure function. Didn't talk about the embouchure once! If we had addressed the embouchure in the way many people here propose, that student would not be where they are today (IMHO). Most people on this forum can do with more "playing" and less "thinking" (to an extent*). Again, it is very case dependent.
*The disclaimer here is that often people on this forum are probably approaching the trumpet with terrible brass habits. A great deal of analysis will be required for the embouchure to function properly in that environment. For those players who refuse to improve their brass habits, analysis and severe focus on the embouchure will, in fact, be their only salvation (to string everything up with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down). You can get incredibly far with a sub-optimal (obviously not dysfunctional) embouchure and great brass habits. That's not to say that you can't also string up a dysfunctional embouchure with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down, but I consistently find that scenario to be far more rare. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 993
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abontrumpet wrote: | | The disclaimer here is that often people on this forum are probably approaching the trumpet with terrible brass habits. A great deal of analysis will be required for the embouchure to function properly in that environment. For those players who refuse to improve their brass habits, analysis and severe focus on the embouchure will, in fact, be their only salvation (to string everything up with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down). You can get incredibly far with a sub-optimal (obviously not dysfunctional) embouchure and great brass habits. That's not to say that you can't also string up a dysfunctional embouchure with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down, but I consistently find that scenario to be far more rare. |
Maybe this is a stupid question, but what exactly are ‘brass habits’?
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: | | Maybe this is a stupid question, but what exactly are ‘brass habits’? |
Not a stupid question (also these are just initial thoughts, I may revisit or revise once challenged aka "feeling cute, might delete later"):
1) You have to know what a great sound is in great detail. Some people argue that "it's obvious," based on my experience, I disagree with those people. This extends beyond just single tones, but how a professional connects one note to another. You supplement this with getting a great understanding of what a musical phrase is as well. The more detail you incorporate, the more this helps drive production.
1a) You have to be able to sing everything you're about to play
2) You have to inhale and exhale in an effective manner that is repeatable.
This is your "form" your "swing." If you are constantly messing with your swing, you are giving yourself a moving target.
2a) You should strive to inhale to a comfortable fullness every time (I know some disagree, however I have yet to see a convincing argument for variable inhales), no matter the note or dynamic you're about to play (this does not apply to lead playing - I do not have enough experience in that area).
2b) Your exhale or blow should be relatively the same no matter what you are playing
Now within that:
1) you must be able to achieve that great sound quality on at least one note and the front end of that note will naturally be the loudest part
2) you must be able to achieve that great sound quality on one note and then move, without diminution of sound, to an adjacent note
3) you must be able to achieve that great . . . and then move, without diminution of sound quality, to another note on the harmonic series - then to all the notes on the harmonic series
4) connecting all the notes in the harmonic series by finger without diminution of sound quality
5) When you tongue, you must be creating a temporary seal in the system.
6) Fingers, tongue, air, and embouchure must act in synchronicity
7) you must be able to go from any note on the trumpet to any note in the manner you wish
8 ) you must be able to achieve your entire dynamic spectrum nearly instantaneously (pp to ff on a dime).
I don't exactly know which list to put this one:
A viable buzz - if the lips cannot vibrate with a reasonable consistency within the presence of a mouthpiece visualizer at ANY pitch, there is a viability issue. YES, the trumpet isn't played in the same way you buzz a visualizer, but the visualizer is the closest thing we have to a comprehensive embouchure analysis (without the presence of a teacher). That being said, if you can achieve the above, the visualizer isn't that important. HOWEVER, if you are running into issues where you begin to micro-analyze and it takes over your world, get a visualizer.
Now, once we get to more advanced stages, there are single-focus things that help us reach that next %, become more and more consistent/efficient, but this will get you a long way.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 993
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you for clarifying.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andybharms
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 633
Location: Boston, MA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | on't leave us hanging like that! |
Are you asking who I studied with? As an undergraduate I studied with Grant Peters. As a Masters student I studied a year with Keith Benjamin then a smattering of others including Charlie Geyer and Keith Johnson as Keith went on a year sabbatical. After that I studied with Craig Morris for a year, then with Phil Collins and Alan Siebert and a smattering of lessons with members of the Cincinnati Symohony. I also worked with Tony Plog here and there. They were all very helpful in their own ways (in particular, Grant Peters, who doesn’t know it but was an absolute force for good during a very difficult time… but I am eternally grateful to all of them) but I have to say in all honesty I really didn’t start to “get it” until I was a working pro and seeing David Bilger and Micah Wilkinson. In particular Micah and I spent a lot of time getting into the very bottom rung of sound and imagination and following the easiest, most natural path to making that a reality. I really didn’t get it at first and found it very frustrating, but then I started advancing and winning and being able to play things more easily than I ever thought possible. I often start my day by reading a short transcript of a conversation we had about response, imagining electricity in the sound, etc. It resonated with me and now is part of my recipe. As a teacher, I have to dilute this a little bit because most of my students do not need to follow that path to its absolute end, but I am more convinced now than ever that these things work. I have worked with some other people in an “audition coach” capacity… Paul Merkelo, Ben Wright, Tony Prisk… please don’t be offended if I left anyone off.
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| andybharms wrote: | | Micah Wilkinson. In particular Micah and I spent a lot of time getting into the very bottom rung of sound and imagination and following the easiest, most natural path to making that a reality. |
Micah is such a good teacher/coach. I always recommend him to anybody trying to get to that next level. Nice to hear you had a good experience with him.
I think JayKosta was referring to "figured out what all my teachers were trying to tell me all along."
| JayKosta wrote: | | What were those teachers trying to tell you? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andybharms
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 633
Location: Boston, MA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gotcha. Well everyone had their own ways of putting it. But the way I feel about it now is that I was over gripping my face and my air (and probably still do). Which I think absolutely everyone does to some degree or another. But for me it was a process of zeroing my meters and finding ways to build sound and music without re-engaging (or minimally engaging…) those excess lip and air column tensions. And for me you can really hear them in the sound. We don’t have physical meters on our bodies and some of those processes don’t have nerves or conscious channels, so we can’t feel them like we can feel temperature on our hands. We can only hear them in our sound, and sometimes we can bring some consciousness with singing and air patterns. Listening a ton also helps because the brain can retrain the body based on a strong, focused, methodical internal sense of how we want to sound, too.
I tried to put this into writing for the morbidly curious. Not intentionally selling my wares here, but there is a lot of singing and air patterns in my 4 Week Arban Routine plan. I also published a structured listening plan and you can get both of those at the same time if you want, on my web site, or you can email me or PM me here directly. Andrewbharms.com. I also go into this in an article I published in ITG… I think it was one of the featured ones in October 2021, or something like that. Should be archived on their web site.
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abontrumpet wrote: |
*The disclaimer here is that often people on this forum are probably approaching the trumpet with terrible brass habits. A great deal of analysis will be required for the embouchure to function properly in that environment. For those players who refuse to improve their brass habits, analysis and severe focus on the embouchure will, in fact, be their only salvation (to string everything up with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down). You can get incredibly far with a sub-optimal (obviously not dysfunctional) embouchure and great brass habits. That's not to say that you can't also string up a dysfunctional embouchure with twine and hope the wind doesn't blow it all down, but I consistently find that scenario to be far more rare. |
You can't make up for one deficiency in your playing with some other element - if you're not using enough air, what you do with your embouchure won't give you a workaround and vice versa. Range, attacks, sound etc. It's parts of a whole that *all* have to do what they need to do. Analysis isn't a crutch - if one's analysis is correct it leads to understanding.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | | You can't make up for one deficiency in your playing with some other element - if you're not using enough air, what you do with your embouchure won't give you a workaround and vice versa. Range, attacks, sound etc. It's parts of a whole that *all* have to do what they need to do. Analysis isn't a crutch - if one's analysis is correct it leads to understanding. |
That's almost what I said, yes. Glad we (almost) agree! We just (might) differ on the process of achieving it. Now, where we do disagree a little is that by definition, if we are deficient in one area, some other area must compensate. You can achieve an infinite number of combinations of element strengths (or attributes) for any given scenario. Because there are an infinite number of possible element strength combinations, exhaustive analysis is chasing your tail. What is more effective, is what I describe previously in this thread (great brass habits; an exhaustive aural analysis; followed by single-attribute analysis). I also don't disagree with Andy's most recent post either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Destructo
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022
Posts: 176
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| andybharms wrote: | | Quote: |
I've honestly never really understood 'air patterns' as a thing. For articulation, sure, but as a blanket cure, I personally don't really get it. How does blowing air teach me anything about what to do with my face/tongue/jaw once the mouthpiece and instrument is in place?
Surely it only works if your muscle memory without the instrument is as somehow more accurate without than with the instrument involved? Otherwise you could be 'blowing' notes in the wrong octave for all anyone would know. |
If this approach works for you, that’s all you need to know!
But, my question is, what muscles do you think you need to play the trumpet? While there is definitely a neuro-muscular memory thing, that connection is more likely to degenerate if the focus is on the tactile feeling and not some outside result (vibrant sound)… in my experience, at least.
The problem I’ve had with any question of embouchure is that it very quickly degenerates into facial micromanagement, which is a no win scenario. It is helpful for me to tinker a little bit, but it is a sound- and ease-driven activity.
There are so many much smarter people than me, so I have to end the conversation with “take it or leave it,” but I do hope it is as helpful for someone who is reading through this as it was for me a handful of years ago, when I figured out what so many of my teachers were probably trying to tell me all along! |
It's not so much about muscle as posture/form. Like hitting a golf ball. Muscle is less relevant than correct form and function. And I'm sure most golfers spend thousands of hours working on form(?).
I guess what I'm saying is I don't really understand or get what blowing air patterns has to do with things like pitch, accuracy, co-ordination etc. The reason being that when the mouthpiece is in place, the rim helps to form the embouchure. The mouthpiece and the lips (jaw, tongue etc) combined are the embouchure. I think I recall Allen Vizzutti saying something about how you can't really form an embouchure without the mouthpiece. I think there's something to that.
I personally think what you do with you air depends a lot on what you do with your face+mouthpiece+instrument. Things like under/overblowing only make sense relative to the whole package. Lead players aren't overblowing, because they're holding their face a little differently to play high and loud, than someone playing soft and delicate. Bobby Shew mentions that there is a conscious shift required to do both well.
But you're right, micromanaging your face is not the answer either. It's why for me pop tones are helpful because your face is either set right for the note or it's not. You don't really have to think about anything much beyond that. Then when you do add the air, it just has to be in balance. But that's just what I've found helpful |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve0930
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 192
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gosh.
When I read this last page of posts for about an hour I thought to myself "Steve, you should stop posting on TH. These guys knows SO MUCH MORE than you!"
It wasn't altogether a positive feeling. I still liked all the info (Abontrumpet.. I worked out for myself some 2weeks ago the idea of a consistent fullness of breath.. so good to get a green light on that) But somehow does a focus on such detailed instruction eclipse (😊🌞) the magic of owning a trumpet.
A Finnish ski jumper Toni Nieminen won Olympic Gold aged 16. He flew. Then the Trainers,the coaches stepped in to support this exciting new talent and he never flew again..not even close. What was it the Doc said? "Whatever you can do to put more singing into the Horn" What does he mean by that..how do I do it.. that's the fun isn't it..Go figure! I say to myself.
Best wishes Steve
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steve0930 wrote: | It wasn't altogether a positive feeling.
/
What does he mean by that..how do I do it.. that's the fun isn't it..Go figure! I say to myself. |
Well I hope that it wasn't too negative a feeling as you certainly have a knack for spreading positivity on this forum. Thank you for your contributions!
/
Absolutely, that's the fun for sure! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Andy Cooper wrote: | | It's a learning style thing - not right or wrong. ...
|
---------------------------------------
'right' or 'wrong' is a value judgement, the real issue is the effectiveness of the method that is used to teach or learn an activity.
In terms of general 'pedagogy' the concern is usually about what learning style yields the desired results from a high percentage of students.
For one-on-one instruction a teacher will likely try the style that they have found to actually be most effective, and then make adjustments to the style depending on the response and results of the student. The ability of the teacher to choose and use an effective style can be used as a measure of whether the teacher is 'good' for that particular student.
I imagine that doing group instruction can be very challenging ...
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abontrumpet wrote: | | if we are deficient in one area, some other area must compensate. You can achieve an infinite number of combinations of element strengths (or attributes) for any given scenario. Because there are an infinite number of possible element strength combinations, exhaustive analysis is chasing your tail. What is more effective, is what I describe previously in this thread (great brass habits; an exhaustive aural analysis; followed by single-attribute analysis). |
What you're calling "aural analysis" is incomplete. The results - i.e. the sound - tells you you are or aren't achieving something but doesn't tell you how to fix it if you aren't achieving it.
"Single attribute analysis" sounds like inaccurate word salad. What I'm doing differently to be able to play a loud high Ab compared to when nothing over the staff felt solid, secure involved awareness of and doing things differently with multiple elements, there's no "single attribute" that would have changed things. The changes might be subtle, possibly not even obvious to an outside observer but they're real changes. As I've said I had various teachers who despite a closeup view of what I was doing didn't have the vaguest idea how to help me. All the hand-waving naysaying you can do doesn't change that it wasn't until I dug into the very specific details of what I was doing that things changed.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhondo
Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 220
Location: California
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
If I’m remembering correctly andybharms was talking about “air patterns” in this thread, a term I’d never heard. It’s funny how sometimes when you hear something you run across it again the same day or soon afterwards.
On this page there’s an audio recording of a lesson with John Rommel where most of what he talks about is “wind patterns”. In fact it’s about all he talks about in the lesson. He seems to be saying it’s a fundamental concept in playing on a high level. Same thing as ‘air patterns’? Seems so.
[/url] https://www.brasschats.com/[url]
Tom Brown, one of the guys from Monster Oil, indicates that lesson was something of a breakthrough in his development. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | | ... it wasn't until I dug into the very specific details of what I was doing that things changed. |
--------------------
(hopefully) we all agree that 'playing' is a physical action that involves physically 'doing things' and that playing is improved by doing those things in a more effective manner.
The debate seems to be about what methods can be used to facilitate a person employing ('learning' might be too strong a word) those actions.
Perhaps some of the difficulty comes from the idea that a student needs to 'learn and understand' the subject - versus 'properly do the needed actions'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | | What you're calling "aural analysis" is incomplete. The results - i.e. the sound - tells you you are or aren't achieving something but doesn't tell you how to fix it if you aren't achieving it. |
As I said (countless times). But also yes and no. If we can achieve the "something" by illuminating the "this is what you're doing and this is what you're trying to achieve," lightbulb, and they are able to do it, then did it not tell you how to fix it too?
| Robert P wrote: | | All the hand-waving naysaying you can do doesn't change that it wasn't until I dug into the very specific details of what I was doing that things changed. |
You are imagining that I'm hand-waving and naysaying. That being said, I have presented my side fairly exhaustively, why not enlighten the readers to how you would approach issues. I'm happy to incorporate what you find to work effectively if it is well reasoned!
Last edited by abontrumpet on Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:02 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhondo wrote: | | Same thing as ‘air patterns’? Seems so. |
Indeed they are! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhondo wrote: | ...
On this page there’s an audio recording of a lesson with John Rommel where most of what he talks about is “wind patterns”. In fact it’s about all he talks about in the lesson. He seems to be saying it’s a fundamental concept in playing on a high level. Same thing as ‘air patterns’? Seems so.
[/url] https://www.brasschats.com [/url] ... |
-------------------------
I listened to the brasschat and think it is very good.
There were 4 separate sections that I especially noticed.
1) 9:10 - 17:10 > pretty technical discussion about how the trumpet 'works'.
2) 17:30 - 23:00 > combination of physical lip adjustment, sound imagination, and developing reflex to 'play' the imagined sound.
3) 28:30 - 34:30 > making smooth easy adjustments to avoid tension 'bumps'.
4) 55:45 - end > focus on the sound, not the feeling of the making the sound. (compare with #2)
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
