Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:58 pm Post subject: French Horn player learning to play trumpet...
I'm an experienced French Horn player learning to play trumpet, mostly to play jazz. I've got a 1930 King Liberty that's in really good shape but I'm a bit lost on what shape mouthpiece would pair well with that horn. I've read a lot on the TH forums about mouthpieces but it's a bit of a wild bantha chase.
I'm going for a middle of the road sound, not to bright (I'm not playing lead in a big band any time soon) and not too dark (I have a cornet for that).
I realize that I need to play a bunch of different mouthpieces to find one that does what I want but I need a place to start.
I'm open to lots of ideas...just not expensive ones.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:26 pm Post subject:
My main instrument is French horn and for that I use a mpc with a rim ID of about 17mm - e.g. a Holton DC.
For trumpet I use a Bach 7, which supposedly has an ID of about 16.2mm.
The Bach 7 has a cup that is deeper than a 7C. I've been happy with the 7 for many years. The 7 is not a 'high note' mpc, but works fine up to C above the staff (and probably higher). _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:41 pm Post subject:
Older King trumpets may be set up to use a mouthpiece with a slightly smaller diameter shank than is available with modern mouthpieces.
1. You can go to eBay and find a King 7M used for around $30.
2. You can send a mouthpiece to a maker and have the shank turned down - probably $30 - $50.
3. You can try the standard Yamaha trumpet mouthpieces. They tend to insert a little further into the mouthpiece receiver than Bach type mouthpieces.
A place to start would be the Yamaha 11C4, 14B4 and the 17B4. The 17B4 would be close to your french horn mouthpiece inside diameter. The others are smaller. You can get these on "demo" from some online music stores. They are also common mouthpieces that your local music store might stock.
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:51 pm Post subject:
I play everything from tuba to trumpet and yes, including french horn.
I've played many old King trumpets and none have needed anything special. The usual Bach mouthpiece works fine if you like Bachs (I don't).
Diameter of mouthpiece means nothing comparing it to your horn mouthpiece. Some people try to find something in common between two different instruments' mouthpieces but they are really different instruments and I think that's a silly road to go down. Diameter can mean something to you based on your face and lips. Middle of the road is a fine place to start. Referring to Bach sizes, that would be in the 3-5 range. Middle of the road cup style or C would also be fine.
Should you want to know, I play a Laskey 75F horn mouthpiece, a Curry 7 size trumpet/cornet mouthpiece, a King 12C trombone mouthpiece and a Bach copy 18 tuba mouthpiece.
Did the trumpet come with a mouthpiece? _________________ Richard
. . . not to mention 'old timers' Julius Watkins, Willie Ruff, and David Amram!
Unless you're looking to do a lot of section work, you might find it more rewarding being a jazz French horn player. (You'd certainly have less competition!) _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:13 pm Post subject:
Richard III, yes it did come with a mouthpiece. I can't be sure it's the original one but the shank has a pretty big ding in it. I put it into the receiver and it leaks air out of the receiver. I'll have to do some searching to see what that mouthpiece is and get it fixed. Pretty shallow cup, though.
I agree with you about trying to find a trumpet mouthpiece "similar" to my Horn mouthpiece. I understand the logic..."Use what you are familiar with" and that might work for some people. But, for me, playing each instrument is really different. When I put a Trumpet on my face, I have a different mindset than when I put my Horn on my face. Sure, your buzz your lips with both instruments but all the other sensations are different. I don't expect them to be the same. So the fact that the mouthpiece is a different diameter or cup shape is part of that difference. _________________ horfhorf
Last edited by horfhorf on Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:27 pm Post subject:
I originally played French Horn and switced to trumpet after High School. I've never had the range or endurance with a trumpet that I did on the horn, sad to say.
The one thing that I have noticed is that a trumpet mouthpiece with a V shaped cup, or modified V at least, is a 'more natural feel' for me to play than a mouthpiece with a strong C cup. Ideally, a V shaped cup, and they can still produce a trumpet tone, that works with a trumpet and that has resistance similar to a French Horn mouthpiece and French Horn, would likely be ideal... Theoretically, at least. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject:
Halflip, I hadn't heard this particular Horn player but I have heard other jazz hornists. Miles had Hornists on Birth of the Cool (and tuba!) and the textures created by the horn and tuba are awesome. I'd never rule out playing my Horn in a jazz setting. I played in the studio orchestra when I was as Eastman (it was a blast) and I've played some other jazz stuff on Horn. But I'm looking for a new challenge and the trumpet/cornet thing is really fun at the moment. _________________ horfhorf
I originally played French Horn and switced to trumpet after High School. I've never had the range or endurance with a trumpet that I did on the horn, sad to say.
The one thing that I have noticed is that a trumpet mouthpiece with a V shaped cup, or modified V at least, is a 'more natural feel' for me to play than a mouthpiece with a strong C cup. Ideally, a V shaped cup, and they can still produce a trumpet tone, that works with a trumpet and that has resistance similar to a French Horn mouthpiece and French Horn, would likely be ideal... Theoretically, at least.
I find this post interesting because I got to tinker with a French horn years ago and noticed how high I could play and how easy it felt on the F.H. mouthpiece compared to trumpet. At the time I wondered why a French horn mouthpiece couldn't work on trumpet. Do they make something similar to a F.H.. mpc for trumpet? pls link if possible? thx!! best/Doug
Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:52 pm Post subject:
Douglas, some of the mellophone players in my high school marching band had adaptors that allowed a French Horn mouthpiece to go into the mellophone. The mellophones that we had were equipped with Trumpet sized receivers. Most of us used Bach 5A trumpet mouthpieces. I felt like the trumpet mouthpiece was more stable when marching and I could play a lot higher (high C's were easy and Ds, E, above that were possible) and a lot louder with the 5A.
I feel like the narrow rim of a Horn mouthpiece would be rough on a trumpet. Maybe not for everyone. I'm sure you could get a custom MP with a narrow french horn like rim and a pretty deep V cup. I'm not sure what that would sound like. _________________ horfhorf
Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:57 pm Post subject:
JonathanM, yeah, I struggle with playing high on the trumpet too. But us Horn players can really honk out the low stuff on a trumpet. I played 4th trumpet in my high school big band and it was great. Fun times. _________________ horfhorf
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:58 pm Post subject:
Douglas, a Trumpet-Flugel mouthpiece (it's a trumpet mouthpiece that leans toward a flugel sound) is usually a very deep V cup. I've got a Reeves C2J that has a huge drill, maybe an 11? Still considered a TF (trumpet-flugel piece) I have an early Trent Austin - Trumpet Flugel piece (originally simply called a TA-TF) that has a deep V but a much more manageable drill size like a 23-24; this would lean toward a French Horn feel, I think. It's mellow, but with Trent's piece you can still get a good trumpet sound and have some ability in the upper register as well.
There are 3 TF mouthpieces used in the following video. I'll try and get a new video up in the next few days; this was recorded with an Iphone; I've got a sound system now that is a little more concise, I think. But this will give you the idea. And the pic may be an eye-opener for you as well - if you aren't used to TF pieces.
Douglas, some of the mellophone players in my high school marching band had adaptors that allowed a French Horn mouthpiece to go into the mellophone. The mellophones that we had were equipped with Trumpet sized receivers. Most of us used Bach 5A trumpet mouthpieces. I felt like the trumpet mouthpiece was more stable when marching and I could play a lot higher (high C's were easy and Ds, E, above that were possible) and a lot louder with the 5A.
I feel like the narrow rim of a Horn mouthpiece would be rough on a trumpet. Maybe not for everyone. I'm sure you could get a custom MP with a narrow french horn like rim and a pretty deep V cup. I'm not sure what that would sound like.
ahhh ok, yea agree about the rim. I like a flat wide rim, but haha, that horn mpc could get some liquid like lip slurs and trills. maybe I'll look into a a V taper and a deeper cup tho.
Douglas, a Trumpet-Flugel mouthpiece (it's a trumpet mouthpiece that leans toward a flugel sound) is usually a very deep V cup. I've got a Reeves C2J that has a huge drill, maybe an 11? Still considered a TF (trumpet-flugel piece) I have an early Trent Austin - Trumpet Flugel piece (originally simply called a TA-TF) that has a deep V but a much more manageable drill size like a 23-24; this would lean toward a French Horn feel, I think. It's mellow, but with Trent's piece you can still get a good trumpet sound and have some ability in the upper register as well.
There are 3 TF mouthpieces used in the following video. I'll try and get a new video up in the next few days; this was recorded with an Iphone; I've got a sound system now that is a little more concise, I think. But this will give you the idea. And the pic may be an eye-opener for you as well - if you aren't used to TF pieces.
Thanks! Jonathan. I'll watch that vid right now. I always thought maybe a deeper cup might actually help me play higher. I have decent range now with(finally!) a workable D and getting close to an high E. But thats on a C cup. I wonder if a D bowl might increaser or in my case, decrease range. Been wanting to try a 3 DW mpc for a while but I think they only make 7 DW now.
Douglas, a Trumpet-Flugel mouthpiece (it's a trumpet mouthpiece that leans toward a flugel sound) is usually a very deep V cup. I've got a Reeves C2J that has a huge drill, maybe an 11? Still considered a TF (trumpet-flugel piece) I have an early Trent Austin - Trumpet Flugel piece (originally simply called a TA-TF) that has a deep V but a much more manageable drill size like a 23-24; this would lean toward a French Horn feel, I think. It's mellow, but with Trent's piece you can still get a good trumpet sound and have some ability in the upper register as well.
There are 3 TF mouthpieces used in the following video. I'll try and get a new video up in the next few days; this was recorded with an Iphone; I've got a sound system now that is a little more concise, I think. But this will give you the idea. And the pic may be an eye-opener for you as well - if you aren't used to TF pieces.
Jonathan, do you sell these? very impressed and im not easily impressed. it really opens up the sound but retains the trumpet tone. would love to try the TA-TF.
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:35 pm Post subject:
Douglas, I've sent you a PM here with some ideas for getting a TA-TF or similar ideas. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
Just get a Bach 3C or similar and play on that for a year. It's a completely middle of the road mouthpiece and they are very easy to come by. Make sure to buy from a known place so you don't get a counterfeit one.
You will figure out what you need after a year, then you can try some other mouthpieces and see what you find interesting. Its not worth it to do that in the beginning as your playing style is going to evolve. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:20 pm Post subject:
FWIW, Giovanni Hoeffer is Italian.
I have played French Horn and Trumpet professionally and I never could get used to the mellowness of the Horn for Jazz. And when you play Jazz aggressively on it, IMO the sound just goes to hell. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 21 Jan 2024 Posts: 9 Location: Alexandria, VA
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:36 pm Post subject:
scottfsmith, yeah, I picked up a 3C and it seems to be working ok. It seems like a good middle ground. And, like you said, until I really develop my own playing style, frequently changing mouthpieces will make things more confusing.
Thanks for all the advice everyone. _________________ horfhorf
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