Why are some cornets so much heavier than others?

[rhatheway]

As I've been comparing cornets over the last couple months, I've realized that there is a definite weight difference between them. For instance, my 1958 Conn Director is significantly heavier than the mid-70s Reynolds Medallion. It also has a darker tone than the Reynolds. The 60s-era King Tempo II 603 is kind of in between those, and the 30s Gretsch Pathfinder is somewhere in between those.

I'm sure design specs and manufacturing techniques have an impact, as well as perhaps where the metals come from, or placement/type of braces, or the amount of metal used. But still, one cornet design is not too terribly different in design from another, so is the weight difference intentional? I assume it is, and my guess is that it really boils down to the sound the manufacturer wants the horn to have.

Is that right, or are there other reasons?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[kehaulani]

It's the weight of the metal.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[huntman10]

Not as much difference between the weights of instruments as players.


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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Subtropical and Subpar]

[rhatheway]

[rhatheway]

[rhatheway]

[peanuts56]

I had an old Grand Rapids that was made around 1885. It played pretty nice. I did have the valves replated. I ended up giving it away about 20 years ago. It was pretty heavy from what I recall.

[Seymor B Fudd]

When I started playing back in the day I was handed a Czech(!) cornet,. It was HEAVY. Soon after this I got a UK cornet, a Regent, of about half the weight, so I felt. No other horn, and I´ve played a lot of them during more than 60 years, have been that heavy. Maybe it was made out of cast iron , Russian style? (You know, the Iron Curtain that once (?)blocked the view in Europe.
This doesn´t represent a political view - it is an observation. Were the moderators to grumble.
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[Dale Proctor]

My Conn 9A Victor is the heaviest cornet I’ve ever picked up, for sure. The bell and leadpipe are copper, which may contribute to the weight. Huge bore (.485”) too, so I’d guess the tubing itself weighs a bit more than a smaller bore horn. It has a big, rich sound, and is capable of being played very loudly without losing its mellow tone.


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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[huntman10]

OK, bear with me, I am getting to the science part of weight and brass instrument.

Way back in the '80's, I was a coal fueled power plant engineer at what was then "state of the art". My primary assignments were environmental controls and water treatment. The scale of equipment, if you have never been around power generation, is enormous.

One of my responsibilities,(actually, 2 units, so multiply by 2) was a large bag filtration system that very effectively trapped the small particulates (the "smoke") in n 13,440 bags each of which were 33 feet long. Each baghouse had 3 large fans, each rated at 14,000 horsepower. Each baghouse collected up to 75 tons the dust (called flyash) which had to be collected continuously. After collection, the flyash was prepared and sold as a construction material used in roads and concrete.

Getting the flyash cleaned off the bags was critical to controlling the power of those high horsepower fans, which at that time amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars in added fuel. I headed a study using high intensity sound waves (up to 140 decibels) to force the flash to release from the bags. The study was quite successful, and the plant still uses the "sonic horns" when they are allowed to burn coal.

OK, so we reach the point where acoustic principles creds come in. The "sonic horns" were essentially trumpet bells (some form of a cone) with a "mechanical embouchure analogue" consisting of a flat plate sitting on a circular base, through which high pressure air flowed through, causing the plate to vibrate and establish a "standing wave" (sound). As I was trying sonic horns from 4 suppliers, which were all SUPPOSED to be resonating at 600 Hz, I had to explain why the model with the LOWEST acoustic output was the most effective.

To get to the point of mass affecting horn output, my testing showed that the horn that worked the best did so with the heaviest cast bell, but also with a "concatenated" shape (more like a heavy cast trumpet bell, while the other models had rolled sheet metal simple. cones). What I also uncovered was the trumpet shaped bell had more complex overtones, and while the other horns had higher decibels at 600 Hz, the trumpet belled horn had considerably higher evergy at the first harmonic (1200 Hz) which coincidentally caused the filter bags to vibrate much more.

Anyway, when I got into this project, I had in my library a study headed up by Dr Arthur Benade of Case Western University, and sponsored and printed by Conn in the late 50's or early 60's.

Anyway, I was able to reach Dr Benade during my study, and he confirmed that the most efficient bell would be concrete, but it would not have much tone. So yes, a heavy instrument can more effectively created higher sound output. However lighter instruments create more brilliant overtones. Of course, where weight is added or removed will have more complex effects. Yamaha and other manufacturers offer lighter or heavier valvesets on some of their custom lines. Bach offers lightweight, heavy weight, and standard weight options on just about every part of the horn. The dedication of some of us (me included) to Strad valve sets of various weights and construction (solid brass vs Nickei balusters) approaches cult status. And then there is the bell and leadipe shape.....

Yes it makes a difference, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes disastrously

Sorry for the long digression.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[rhatheway]

[rhatheway]

[Seymor B Fudd]

No it isn´t. Obviously lacking that shepherd´s crook.' Is it even a cornet??
But I´m from the other side.
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[shofarguy]

[Dale Proctor]

[Andy Cooper]

Keep in mind that many cornets use a "longer" valve block than trumpets so there is part of your weight. (I had this great idea of turning a Olds Ambassador cornet into a .468 bore super trumpet. Opps. It would have required a custom wider wrap bell and tuning slide.)

[stuartissimo]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[Dale Proctor]