Quitting band my senior year?

[Maxamillion]

Like many other people here, i had a similar experiance the last 3 months of my senior year.

My teacher was way burnt out, overworked, and lacked the experiance needed to handle the workload she had(especially the Jazz Band). We were yelled at almost every single day and things just weren't going anywhere.

So i finally was fed up around the last 3 months of school and i finally quit. I was able to practice what i needed and i improved. Now im in the school i wanted to go to so everything is ok.

If things are as bad as u say i believe you should quit. As earlier mentioned i think you should post the name because people like that are destroying music education and must be dealt with.

If you quit though your going to have to stay committed and practice.
_________________
Bach Strad
Stomvi Elite Flugel

[ben folds]

Well, I did it. I went to my counselor and got my schedule changed for next year. I'm really looking forward to having all the freedom, being able to relax and enjoy my last full summer here, and my last year of high school. The thought of not having to lose half my summer and half of my school year to marching band is a very beautiful thought indeed.

I haven't broken the news to my band director yet though- any ideas on what to say? I know he's counting on me for next year, especially in marching band (he hates my best friend, 1st chair, and told him not to even bother trying out for section leader this year, leaving me to take his place...), and as much as I hate him as a teacher, he's not really a terrible guy when you get him alone. I almost feel bad about letting him down. But then again, he's the one who almost drove me to quit playing altogether, so I don't feel too bad.

[Larry Smithee]

Ben,
I'm getting in on this a little late, but here is my take on the issue.

What many high school students often don’t realize is how brief the whole experience of secondary school is. It’s literally over in a blink of an eye. Two years after you graduate you won’t remember half the names of your former band members. By four years post high school most of those you can remember will have drifted into a new circle of friends, gotten married, have kids of their own and will have scattered so far that it will be impossible to keep track of them. High school is 3 years, but life afterwards (assuming a full life) will be upwards to 65 years or more. My point is that you need to put some perspective on all of this. Every musical experience you have/had will be valuable. The bad experiences will be good for knowing what not to do and the good will be valuable for knowing what works well. Usually the band directors who literally walk around like a ticking bomb ready to blast whatever crosses their paths won’t end up making a meaningful career of teaching and will not make it to retirement. They to are just passing through. Many of these guys themselves came through band programs in which the directors were much like they are and were given a poor leadership model. They were ruled by an iron hand and used intimidation as a tool. Only they were not, for some reason, able to recognize their model’s defects. Sometimes the culprit in this is personal ego. That is, the director wants and desires respect from within their peer group (the band director community). This might be reflected, for example, in setting goals that are too far out of reach of the group they are managing and are just simply unrealistic. Thus, these directors become frustrated and inevitably pass the frustration on to their students who in turn become disillusioned, often resulting in a mass feeling of low group morale. I have no idea if any of this is reflected in your situation. But as others have pointed out it won’t matter to perspective colleges if you were in band your senior year or not. What matters are your grades in school, the quality of your audition, and especially those post secondary scores on the SAT, etc.
Larry


[ This Message was edited by: Larry Smithee on 2004-03-16 09:37 ]

[DaveH]

Bravo for the above post from Larry Smithee...right on...

Many young people - and it is understandable - I had this same kind of perspective at that age, so I'm not putting you down here - don't fully realize that high school is only a "blink of an eye" in the so called big picture of life. And, to a large extent, it is not an accurate reflection of real life and the adult world anyway. High school "society" is just that; and it ends with graduation.

Based on the experiences I, and many others I know have had, most of what goes on in high school doesn't matter much in the long run. IMO, most of the adult world doesn't take high school all that seriously, due to the points mentioned in the above post. It is seen as the "time of the teenager," and out in the real world beyond high school, that usually isn't taken all that seriously.

I took it VERY seriously at the time, but now at age 52, I see it pretty much didn't mean a hoot. What mattered was that I got my diploma. After that, the business of real life begins in earnest.

I also have many wonderful memories from the time of my high school years, and I found my wife there. So for me, it's mostly just memories, and many very fond and cherished ones, at that...

But high school didn't affect anything much after graduation. It just all ended, and then the "real deal," so to speak, begins...



[ This Message was edited by: DaveH on 2004-03-16 10:34 ]

[_swthiel]

Two additional thoughts.

First: Larry Smithee and DaveH -- right on! It's not without reason that another term for graduation is "commencement" -- at graduation, your adult life begins!

Second: ben folds -- I think it would be appropriate for you to tell your band director about your decision, rather than waiting for him to find out when he sees the roster for next year. It may be a difficult discussion, but there are a couple of good things that might come out of it. Throughout your life, you'll come across people in positions of power and authority over you, it's useful to be able to discuss your differences with those in power in an honest but respectful way. It's also quite likely that your director is not getting an outcome he wants in this situation, if you're willing to discuss it with him he might (might!) see ways in which he'll want to change his behavior. Just my opinion, you should talk it over with your parents as well, they know you, the director, and the situation.

Good luck!

Steve
_________________
Steve Thiel

Matthew 25:31-46

[jamie]

WOW an F in band that is unheard of! Here in Nova Scotia there is an option to challenge a credit. By changelling the credit and passing you get the credit and don't have to do the time. They would make a test for you to see if you know the everything that is in the course. If you pass you get the credit!! but you cannot challenge a credit you have already takin and if you fail you might not be able to get into the program the following year. In your case you could just challenge the senior year of band , if you think you could pass and then everything could work out. you probably don't have the same thing in your school, but you should see if there is anyting like it or if you could do something like it. If you would like to do something in music or maybe someting else, they will see that you failed band. They will look at you and and wonder if you could pass there program, because you failed band. The universities will choose someone who passed everything over someone who failed one. They want to look good so they do not want to let too many people in that will make them, look bad. Don't forget that they also just want your $$$.

[Still Trying]

Ben,

If you sincerely want to continue with trumpet, you don't need to remain in band. It depends on your motivation and self discipline to practice. And you're still in some other groups. If you continue playing all your life, you eventually are going to have to get out of the band someday anyway. Finding the time and motivation to practice is something all ex-band members have to come to grips with at some point in time. And each one has to find a group to play with when they no longer qualify for a school band. No longer being in a band does not mean your trumpet playing has to come to an end.

But you should find the best teacher you can afford and make the most efficient use of your practice time as humanly possible. Strive to get so good that your ex-band director will be kicking his own butt because he let you get away the next time he hears you play. Also if you can take lessons from a trumpet professor associated with the college you plan to attend, he will be in a position to recommend you, when your time comes to apply for college. For example, we have a trumpet teacher in our area, who played lead in the North Texas University One O'Clock Jazz Band. He does not teach at NTU, but when he recommends a student to NTU, his alma mata, his students are almost universally accepted.

Just keep practicing, learning, and improving. You'll be fine.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

[AccentOnTrumpet]

I quit school band in 10th grade...I think it was one of the smartest things I've done...Basically because it gave me the opportunity to really sit down and work out my technique without being forced to play band music every day under the direction of someone who may know absolutely nothing about the trumpet. Now that I'm much more facil in my playing, I can handle the load of playing 5 hours a day, every day, without much of a big deal, but I think having band every day can distract young musicians from really learning fundamentals and can inhibit correct playing, if they don't know what they're doing (which most young musicians don't). That's just my opinion from what I've seen and experienced.

As for failing band, I don't see why not having a teacher should warrant an F? I think you should have a teacher, but it's no reason to fail someone in band, Jesus Christ lol! I guess there's more to this story than it seems...Because I remember the only requirements in band were showing up, not destroying the whole section, not being an ass, and being able to do those playing tests they gave you (which usually involve something easy like major scales or some easy band excerpt). I guess it depends on the school??

Also, I'd like to add that you should definitely challenge the F. However, you just have to remember that high school band is bullsh*t man. That's why I do stuff outside of school these days. Too much bull for me. Maybe in the private schools it's different, but I don't go to one, and it doesn't sound like you do either, so if being in band is not a satisfying experience I think you might want to search for other (better) ensembles in your town if you haven't already. Good luck.

[ This Message was edited by: AccentOnTrumpet on 2004-03-21 20:19 ]

[Billy B]

Stop whining and get your butt back in the band. Just because things don't go the way you think they should you decide to quit? Well I have news for you, things rarely ever go the way you think they should. If you have any ideas about being a professional musician you better learn right now that you are going to be dealing with *******s throughout your entire career. Learning to make the most of a bad situation is the best lesson you will learn in life so you just as well get started now.

[AccentOnTrumpet]

^^Yes, but professional musician bull is much different from high school band bull, believe me...

I'm not saying be a quitter, but if you're going to go through crap like that, you might as well get paid for it, and in high school band you don't get paid (or this kid isn't anyway I don't think lol).

High school band I will admit did prepare me for b.s. but I feel experiencing that b.s. for 1 1/2 years made me get the point, and there's no reason to stay in a program that you're not getting anything out of. Instead find one that you do get something out of, and it will prepare you for the real world better than some small time rigid school band.

[ben folds]

I'm sorry if you don't like to read my "whining" thread, Billy B. I'm also sorry it upsets you so much that I don't enjoy being yelled at every day for nothing at all, and losing half of my summer and 3 hours every day after school for marching band. I wasn't having any fun, and rather than bitch and moan like every other person in band, I did something about it- when going to the school counselor and talking to her about the problems only made things worse, I did the only thing I had left to do. I'm really sorry it bothers you so much that I tend to solve my problems. If I'm not enjoying something, why should I continue to do it?

[no_tone]

One of the most recent winners for the "Presidents Own" Marine band audition didn't join his public school's band program. He went to college, studied with good teachers and practiced his butt off. At your age as long as you have access to some ensemble experience in the form of youth orchestra, quintets, duets with friends and a good teacher your have some of the major ingredients for success at the college level.

On another note I find it extremely distressing when some band directors put the success of a band PROGRAM above the tenets of a quality music education. When did trophys from marching competitions become so important?

-Steve

[elbobogrande]

Ben,
(Hate to do it, but) I'll play devil's advocate...

Was it your band director who gave you an F because he's a jerk, or was it policy that dictated that anyone who doesn't meet certain criteria would get a reduced grade? Were you surprised that you got an F, or did you maybe figure it was coming because you hadn't met all the criteria?

As harsh as it can be, policy can/should *rarely* be beaten! It's one thing if you had no idea what the consequences were, but if you did, you effectively chose your own grade.

I do, however, agree heartily that one F in HS band won't affect you all that much, unless you're on a weighted grading system and your band class is counted as an honors or otherwise heavily weighted class.

I'll offer my suggestion on how to mend your situation:
Maybe, before talking to the higher-ups at your school, you (and probably your parents) could discuss the situation with your director. I think he'd appreciate that more than if you directly went over his head. Also, I'd predict that working *with* your director to improve this F (or to avoid another one, if band's in your future), rather than arguing with him, you might develop a better mutual understanding. Maybe he'll agree that it's a flawed policy and make it more lenient in the future.

Good luck to you with this!
John

Edit: I reread the original post and found I have more to add; If so many people failed like you did, it probably would be good for your teacher to re-examine his policy. It's my opinion that teachers should do everything they can to help their students improve performance and avoid failing grades, and if such a large number of students failed, the policy probably isn't working to improve performance.

_________________
theblueone2002@aol.com
Flame protection: If, for the sake of "credibility" or otherwise, you want my contact or bio info, email me.

[ This Message was edited by: elbobogrande on 2004-03-22 18:59 ]

[ben folds]

Yes, in all fairness, I should've been expecting a failing grade, because it is part of the course syllabus to have a private teacher. However, my problem comes from the teacher changing his standards simply for the sake of being a jerk, or teaching us a lesson, or whatever he was trying to do. I turned in no proof showing I had any lessons the first semester, and got an A. Once I lost my teacher, I figured it was no big deal; our director never really expected forms in the first place, so why would it matter now, right? I considered talking with him when I lost my private teacher, but after a friend of mine told him that he couldn't afford lessons, and the director replied, "Well, then don't plan on being in this band next year," I figured there wasn't much use in it. Anyway, I seem to have forgotten where I was going with this, so I'll stop now. Hopefully this is a reply to your post in some way

[Billy B]

So let's get this straight. The band director is a jerk. Your private lesson teacher stopped showing up. The guidance counselor only made things worse. Did you ever stop to think maybe you are the problem?

[elbobogrande]

That guy does sound like a jerk, I guess. One fair thing, it seems, would be to have some kind of scholarships put into place for the students who can't afford lessons. It's my firm belief that if a student were legitimately unable to live up to class policy, it's the teacher's job to step up and facilitate in order that the student can succeed in the class. A teacher should be flexible to help himself and his students deal with (purposefully) inflexible policy.

It definitely would have been a better idea to communicate to your teacher your inablity to have lessons. It's definitely the responsiblity of both parties to keep the lines of communication open.

At the very least, you've learned a great lesson for college. I promise that most of your professors will stick to policy like white on rice. In 99% of my college classes, the profs' syllabi were the final word on anything. The same goes for assignments. If you follow every word to a tee, you should have a guaranteed A. Less than that, and your grade will be reduced accordingly. They pretty much tell you exactly how to succeed. It's rarely easy or quick to do exactly what they want you to do, but their expectations are usually very clear.

Sorry about the tangential diatribe about college, but I hope it helps you.
John
_________________
theblueone2002(AT)aol(DOT)com
"What? You mean to tell me that Rimsky and Korsakov were both named Nicolai?"

[ADziuk]

I'd get rid of that F. First realize that there are other organizations to deal with this through if you hit a dead end at the top of the district infrastructure. Music Educators National Conference is the national organization for music educators. It is highly likely that your director is a member. There are people in that organization that will go to bat for you locally, like band directors from other nearby towns, who would be willing to write a letter on your behalf to your principal as to how innapropriate his actions are. In addition there are other professional organizations that are designed to deal with greivances between students and educators. This may be taking things a bit far, but that grade really could hurt you.

Beyond that, I would quit band if you are really in as bad a situation as you describe. Go find a good private teacher in your area and focus all your efforts there, and perhaps join a community band. In my experience the college professors you will be auditioning for are going to be more interested in your personality, your motivation, and your playing that what ensembles you played in in high school. I know in high school what band you are in seems infinitely important amongst your peers and to your own sense of pride, but I hate to tell you that in the long run no on in college is going to care what you did in high school, since even the most advanced high school ensembles are childs play compared to what is going to be asked of you at the college level. Whatever you decide, be the kind of positive player and person you know you can be and don't let this creep ruin your trumpet experience.

One last thing, as someone involved in music education stories like this make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. What program licensed this guy?

P.S. am I to assume you are in a public school?? I can't speak specifically to regulations in your state, but public school teachers are required by federal law to provide an education in certain terms and by certain clearly stated routes. I'm pretty sure that your director has absolutely zero ground to stand on in forcing you to take lessons outside of school that cost money or not. In fact if you really wanted that would probably be grounds for a lawsuit. It is his job to provide instruction that meets his goals not force you to find it on your own.

[ This Message was edited by: ADziuk on 2004-03-23 01:09 ]

[ben folds]

Yes, Billy B, it is probably my own personal fault. Thank you for solving all of my problems for me.

Is there any way to block/ignore people on this forum?

[thelurker]

benfolds,

billyb just gave you the best advice out of the entire 3 pages.

you should thank him

[Billy B]

To all of you who openly criticize band directors. Unless you know the rest of the story it is best to back off. Band directors are often put under a great deal of pressure by administrators. I personally know a director who was told that unless his jazz band won the state championship within three years, he would be expected to resign. I know another who was threatened with a staff reduction as well as a cut in funding if his marching band didn't compete on a certain level. Couple that kind of pressure along with a bunch of kids who's main concern is their personal comfort level, and you have a potentially explosive situation. Add an administration that consistently sides with parents and students in conflicts with faculty and it can be unbearable. Then comes the low pay and long hours. As far as the on going discussion about lessons; public schools do not require private lessons unless the school pays for them, or they may be an alternative, at the students expense, to lessons with the director. No lessons at all is a good way to flunk band. Directors who dig marching band invariably have kids who dig marching band. Directors who think marching band sucks have kids who think marching band sucks. No matter how hard they try to conceal their dislike for MB, the kids generally see through it. Directors rely on upper classmen to lead the younger ones. This is done by example. Quiting is a bad example. If you can't handle a differing opinion, you shouldn't ask.