Pencil exercise (advocates only please!)

[ljazztrm]

I am not interested in starting up another arguement about the effectiveness of the pencil exercise. I know that for myself and several playing colleagues it has worked very well. Some people have no success with it and others think it has no value. That's fine.

What I am interested in are the people who use this exercise and find it beneficial and would like to know the ways people are practicing this exercise.

I bought Pops pencil exercise book several months ago and thought it to be the most complete program for the pencil exercise...especially for anyone just starting out on it, it is a very smart progression on how to build up muscle with this exercise. I liked it so much I bought several copies for friends of mine.

That being said, I also have found a way to take it further with, what I feel to be, more benefit and also have two friends (who are full-time players) who are trying this with me and having similiar experiences.

Pops says in his book that holding the pencil for more than 4 minutes (and this is once you've gradually developed the muscles over a specific 10 week program) can cause stiffness and diminishing returns resulting in lip stiffness and slower response.

What Pops says may be true for some players, perhaps many players, but in my own experience and with several other players I have found this NOT to be the case. Also I think that being able to hold the pencil for 4 minutes COMFORTABLY is very important...(i.e. - with very little strain).

Right now we are finding the frequency of this exercise to be effective on an every other day routine (unless it is a very heavy playing day) to work well.

So I guess I am just taking an informal survey to see how people who use this exercise go about practicing it.

p.s. - I got back into this exercise a few weeks ago when I was playing a gig with a great lead player who is a friend of Lin Biviano's (who is one of my all time favorite lead players). He was recounting to me how Biviano would 'hold the pencil' from his drive to Philadelphia from NY to study with Doc Reinhardt.

[crzytptman]

You know, I don't understand this issue of lip stiffness. No matter how much I work the muscles of my face (surrounding my lips), the inside lip tissue remains soft and pliable. This is the part of MY lips that I use to produce vibrations.

Using a 1/4" dowel about 8" long, I do the hold every couple of days. I feel it's analagous to weight lifting. Stronger face = greater endurance = more secure playable range.

Nate
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[benge78]

I guess I do a modified version of the exercise, in part because I want to avoid any stiffness. I do the hold every other day, two sessions (going to and from work), 3 "sets" of 2 minutes each. I have had no problems associated with this routine, and although I can't differentiate this from any other part of my routine as far as results, I will say that I feel it helps on the days when I can't put the horn to my face.

[Pops]

Lex you have to understand that there are many different physical makeups.

That is why NO embouchure fits everyone and NO exercise routine fits everyone.

I know people who have done the pencil for over 2 years and still can't do more than 2 minutes. BUT they improved in range, endurance and tone which is after all the reason for the exercise.

I wrote a warning about time because some people are prone to muscle strain and also prone to being stiff.

I am a large man but I can touch my toes. My wife on the other hand is thin but has never been able to touch her toes. Her muscles get and stay stiff.

This stiffness is why some people say not to lip buzz or mouthpiece buzz. Some people are VERY prone to overdoing their muscles.

I find that by reminding people of possible problems and giving time limits things go smoother.


A couple of years ago I wrote about the pencil exercise on the Trumpet Newsgroup.

I included the 4 minute a day time limit.

Later that week someone posted that the exercise was ruining their playing.

I asked how long and often he did it.

He did it 4 minutes every 15 minutes he was at work.
Yes 4 minutes 4 times an hour for 8 hours.
4x4=16x8=128

128 minutes a day 2 hours and 8 minutes or 32 times as long as I suggested.

My reply was for him to never go to a doctor as when he was told to take 2 aspirin he would take 2x32 or 64 and die.


EVERYTHING can be overdone.
Exercise, practice, even drinking water.
It is possible to drink enough to drown on the cell level and die.

People seem to need limits.





_________________
Come see the books everyone talks about; "30 Minutes to Better Trumpet Playing", "How the Chops Work". Plus my other 8 books at http://www.bbtrumpet.com

Pops

It is the Smart application of hard work that gets you there.

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-03-19 11:17 ]

[ljazztrm]

All excellent points Pops..thanks for the post. I should remind everyone that, while I do experiment extensively with embouchure and mouthpieces, I am much more of a player than an embouchure doctor.

Almost three years ago now, I started getting into bodybuilding. I found the most common mistake I was making was overdoing it. I think this happens to a lot of people who get excited about a 'new thing'. In fact, it has taken me a couple of years to learn about the appropriate frequency of 'work to rest' that my specific body responds to. It is the whole idea of learning to work smarter, not necessarily harder, and this can take time to learn.

Also your point about everyone responding somewhat differently to muscle development is very valid. I understand why in your book you lean towards the more cautious approach. But I think giving equal weight to the people who, not only are able to tolerate more exercise, but actually derive the most benefit from practice in this way, is very important as well.

Realize that in my saying this that most of the trumpet players I know are strong, full-time players who are just looking to extend the physical aspects of their playing even further. It is my opinion that these players are like 'advanced bodybuilders' who, while some are able to lift more weight than others, all can lift a pretty sizeable amount of weight compared to the non, or beginner, lifter. So this is where I am coming from when I report my experiences.

I'm glad you posted that story about the guy who did the Pencil Exercise so maniacally. At least we know the facial muscles are pretty tough! I don't think many people would do it with that frequency, but it is helpful to know what would happen if it was taken to that limit.

[LeeC]

Am a strong advocate of pencil exercise. The things that work for me may not apply to others, but this is one effort everyone ought to at least try first before condemning.

Though i'm no doctor or biologist (for sure) it seems resonable to me that by increasing the strength of the embouchure and facial muscles one automatically increases the efficiency of the related small blood vessels known as capillaries. So if this is true one would expect a practicioner of the pencil exercise to have more endurance. With the circulation improved in the embouchure then the related muscles can fill themselves with oxygen quicker.

My other feeling about increasing embouchure strength through the pencil exercise is that it allows the important transfer of work from the inner embouchure to the outer, stronger facial muscles. So now the inner embouchure muscles are more free to vibrate. This increases playing efficiency.

[drd]

HI
I'm a fan of Pops and I tried the pencil. It was a bad thing for me. But here's the reason. I was (and am) suffering from some kind of muscle wasting or muscle disease that 1) weakens strength and cuts endurance for all of my muscles. 2) causes terrible muscle stiffiness and soreness form exertion. SO I was trying to do the pencil bit and was getting weaker with what for me was overuse...even 30 seconds with the short pencil was a strain. Ain't life strange. SO I stay at my jr high range and my 5th grade endurance. I play when I can and what I can. I think that following Pops' very moderate plan should help anyone with normal musculature. I do wonder, however, if the pencil needs to be matched with a resonably cushiony embouchure...no smile.

Dr D

[fuzzyjon79]

Has anyone ever seen the Facial Flex Ultra? Evidently Patrick Hession (lead trumpet with Maynard's Big Bop Nouveau) uses this. You can look at it on his webpage: http://www.hessionssessions.com and go to where it says Products. Has anybody ever tried anything like this? What are your thoughts?
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

[nceagle13]

i have tried the pencil exercise, and it has worked wonderfully for me personally. But I got to the point where I could sit and hold a pencil for 11 minutes straight. needless to say......my chops were killing me! But there came a point where I couldn't get above high C (before I was hitting double C's) , then I saw on a forum here that this could be b/c of a muscle imbalance. I had too much muscle build up in the wrong places.
so i do believe that the pencil exercise works, but only when following the correct steps and not doing it in excess!

[ljazztrm]

Thanks for posting that Don....would you be willing to elaborate on this in further detail? How long and how often do you do the pencil exercise? Pops' research has shown that four minutes is the optimum time for a lot of players. In my own ongoing research, I have found that holding it once a day as long as possible has been working. So far, the longest time I have been able to hold it is 6 min. I now have 3 other full-time players working with this exercise in the same way and noting the effects....so far the results have all been positive.

Pops is a 'chops doctor' and has done more research on this exercise. I think his book on the pencil exercise is the best I've seen so far....I wonder if anyone using that book could report their experiences and the difference they felt from being able to hold the pencil for 4 minutes with strain and being able to hold it for 4 min. comfortably, meaning, they could go on if they wanted to. Pops, in his book, does not specify in this area.

Any Lin Biviano fans out there? I have now heard from 2 sources that Lin used to 'hold the pencil' from his drive from NY to Philly (about 45min or so) to study with Doc Reinhardt.

Is 4 min. the optimum time to hold the pencil? If so, right now my feeling is that it should at least be able to be held comfortably for 4 min. Is doing it once a day too much? Again, as Pops has pointed out fairly frequently, everyone is somewhat different in the way they respond to exercise (read his reply to me earlier on in this thread). From bodybuilding, I have learned some valuable lessons that translate, I feel, directly to the physical aspects of trumpet playing. It is of utmost importance to become sensitive to your own body's tolerance for exercise frequency and what specific exercise frequencies give optimal results. Again, for the beginner, the most common mistake is overtraining....but another fairly common mistake is to undertrain as well!

One more thought that I have found relevant to my own case. If we are talking about holding the pencil comfortably for four minutes, then this means having the ability to hold it longer than this. The other day I had a long rehearsal with a lot of playing and then a 4 hour rock type gig with a lot of very loud, high stuff. The next day, I could barely hold the pencil for 2 1/2 minutes. To me this means that I am not at the point where I can say that I can comfortably hold the pencil for 4 minutes all the time. Perhaps developing the embouchure strength to the level where it is always fairly easy to hold the pencil for 4 minutes would ensure very solid, fresh chops no matter what the playing demand. This might mean the ability to hold the pencil for twice as long (8 min).

[CRJAZZMAN]

I think the pencil exercise is great! It helped me switch over to center compression from smash-mouth trumpet playing which used to shred my chops. I definitely use it on my way to and from work. It helps me maintain my strength and when I am strong I have better endurance because I use lower pressure on the face. The high notes lock in better, even that troublesome dbl A locks in!
It's also a way to mitigate loss of ability when away from the horn for long periods of time, like summer vacation!
Question:
Is there a benefit to doing reps, moving the pencil up and down over and over versus just holding it straight out?
Also what about using extreme weight and tiring out quickly a'la Brisbois using the shank of a mpc. instead of holding a pencil for 3 - 4 minutes? Interesting comment on over doing the exercise actually being detrimental to your range!
Thanks!


_________________
SC gave me a double C!
Matt Canfield
please email me at crjazzman@yahoo.com
I do not check the email address listed in my profile.

[ This Message was edited by: CRJAZZMAN on 2004-04-09 10:15 ]

[Pops]

When I was younger I lifted weights, ran and did martial arts 4-6 days a week.
My weight coach was Floyd Odem who was in dozens of national contests. (Mr. America...)
He even won in the over 40 division.


Some of you act as thought the lips are NOT muscles. But they are.
So don't be surprised when they behave LIKE muscles.


I am including a little info about how muscles work, build strength and recover.
If you want more Dr. Ellington Darden (co-inventer of the Natilus machines with Arthur Jones.) has written 3 GREAT books on these topics.


Before any of you ask:

1. WE can NOT train the lips to complete failure and still maintain a playing routine or gigs. (After all we can NOT rest for 2-3 days at a time.)

2. We are all built differently. Even when I worked out daily I didn't look like a body builder yet I benched reps at 406. I was still big. And I'm sure that if Don Knotts lifted he wouldn't look like a body builder either. He would still be small.

3. Body builders get away with 6 hour work outs and too many sets because of DRUGS.
They die young and healthy too.

4. The lips only have to get in the way of the air so why work them so hard?

5. I have seen overtraining in the gym People getting weaker and in trumpet playing with people having less range and endurance.

6. Don Jacoby told me this years ago and it was true then and is true now.
"Patience is a virtue but impatience is a _____ liability." Well I can't quote him in a forum with kids on it




EXERCISING AND BUILDING MUSCLES

Muscles change and develop with regular exercise but the effects differ, depending on whether you engage in strength, speed, or endurance training.

Strength and burst training cause the muscle fibers to enlarge. Individual muscle fibers increase in diameter as a result of an increase in intracellular protein fibrils.

Endurance training causes more blood vessel formation than does speed or strength training, which produces an increased capacity for aerobic metabolism within the muscle cell. This change is seen after a few weeks of training and is maximized in about three months. The aerobic enzymes that metabolize carbohydrates, fats, and proteins double.

It is important to develop your strength and speed systems, but if you want to continue past about two minutes of high intensity workouts, you need to have your aerobic systems developed.



Avoid Overtraining: For muscles to improve in strength, they must be stressed to failure. This causes muscle damage. If the muscles are allowed to recover, they will come back stronger (in about three days). Imagine if you had a cut on your skin and you rubbed the cut or even broke it open everyday. You can see that this would take longer to heal. Muscles need to be allowed to heal also. The recovery time varies depending on the person and how intensive the workout was




Training for peak performance seems a simple deal: You work out, you improve. It stands to reason that if you work out harder and more often, you'll get better faster. But that's not always the case. Studies of swimmers, for example, find that training 3 or 4 hours a day confers no greater benefit than training for just 1 or 1½ hours a day. In fact, the higher training levels significantly reduce muscle strength and sprint performance.

Recovery Movement

Actually, exercise doesn't build muscles up, it tears them down. When muscles are worked intensely, they become marred by tiny tears and other forms of microscopic damage. Muscles sore? That's microtrauma you're feeling. Muscle-building kicks in after the exercise is over. "When damage occurs, there are processes for repairing it—repairs that make the muscle better than it was before," says Dennis Wilson, Ed.D., head of the Department of Health and Human Performance at Auburn University in Alabama. "There needs to be some kind of rest or reduction in exercise for tissue to renew itself." It's what athletes call recovery.

Recovery happens not only between exercise bouts, but while you're exercising. If you're lifting weights to build strength, for example, it's important to rest between sets to let your muscles recuperate as fully as possible. "If you don't, you'll reduce the amount you can lift with each set, which means your strength gains will come much harder," says Mike Stone, Ph.D., president of the National Strength and Conditioning Association.


Don't fret about losses. Dedicated exercisers often fear that any tapering off will undo hard-won progress. But you lose nothing with short rests—or even relatively long ones.

Studies have found that runners and swimmers who cut back their training by 60 percent showed no loss of endurance even after two to three weeks. Another study showed that strength losses weren't noticeable even a month after a three-week training program stopped.




THE TYPES OF MUSCLES: Fast twitch and slow twitch

Fast Twitch Muscles. The purpose of this type of muscle is to provide rapid movement for short periods of time. Fast twitch muscles do not use oxygen - they use glycogen. Reactions using glycogen require anaerobic enzymes to produce power. Glycogen is stored in the muscles and liver and is synthesized by the body using carbohydrates. There are also two types of fast twitch muscles. These two types of fast twitch muscles will function during moderate and maximum muscle effort. Fast twitch muscles provide you strength and speed.

Slow Twitch Muscles. As their name indicates, these fibers have a slower contraction time. Slow twitch muscles use oxygen for power and have a predominance of aerobic enzymes. These types of muscles are large muscles found in the legs, thigh, trunk, back, hips and are used for holding posture.

ATP is the main source of energy for all muscle contraction. There are several chemical reactions that take place to produce ATP. When a muscle is used, a chemical reaction breaks down ATP to produce energy:

ATP + Actin + Myosin à Actomyosin + Phosphate + ADP + Energy

This is the chemical reaction that produces energy, however, there is only enough ATP stored in the muscle cell for two or three slow twitch contractions, or one burst of power from a fast twitch contraction. More ATP must be created.

There are three enzyme systems that can create more ATP. The enzyme system that is used depends on whether the type of muscle is fast twitch or slow twitch, and whether the muscle is used for strength, burst power, or endurance.


To continue muscle usage requires the aerobic system to kick in. The aerobic system uses oxygen and sugar for fuel. Your ability to perform well after about two minutes of maximum exertion depends on the aerobic conditioning of your body.


_________________
Come see the books everyone talks about; "30 Minutes to Better Trumpet Playing", "How the Chops Work". Plus my other 8 books at http://www.bbtrumpet.com

Pops

It is the Smart application of hard work that gets you there.

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-04-09 11:25 ]

[JoeCool]

I don't disagree with anything thing here, so please don't flame me.

I purchased Pops pencil exercise book as well. I had been doing the exercises prior to this as well. I had no problem getting to the prescribed 4 min. I was there in a couple sessions. I can see the benefit for players lacking in developed muscles of the embouchure.

There is a problem tho translating this to the horn. Why not do it on the horn? The muscle building that is. I have been doing the exercises in Musical Calisthenics for Brass (Carmine Caruso) for two years. This is probably why I had no problem getting to 4 min.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. It's a great way to accomplish what the pencil exercise does and so much more. Efficient use of air, counting and synchronization, endurance, range, tone, aperture control....etc...I could go on and on. For what it's worth, check it out if you're not into it.

[ljazztrm]

First of all Pops, thanks for taking the time to post all that great info. The one thing I disagree with is the idea that you must tax your muscles to failure to build strength. I know this is a popular idea but, after reading Pavel Tsatsouline's 'Power to the People!' a few months ago, my opinions on this changed. (Good interview with him here: http://www.t-mag.com/articles/152russ.html )

Pavel advocates a multiple set, low rep, and high frequency work out. He points out that most of the world's champion powerlifters hardly ever lift to failure. This means much less chance of injury.....When I switched to this way of working out, I started making even better gains than my longer-rest-period-always-to-failure-method. Without going into too much detail, I will summarize that, right now, my routine usually consists of 7 sets of deadlift and 7 sets of bench press every two days (Mon, Thurs, Sun, Wed, etc). First set is the heaviest, second is 90% of that and the next 5 are 80% (of the first set).

I don't know if it's possible to do the 'pencil exercise' to "absolute failure". I apply this principle to the 'pencil exercise' in the sense that I stop a few seconds earlier than I used to when I do it (meaning the pencil doesn't fall out of my mouth from exhaustion)..I use the indicator of when it starts to dip below the horizon..and this is probably the 'failure point'..but I still am really pushing the muscles. I only do it once a day now for as long as I can...I feel that, for me, this is definitely enough!

Thanks again Pops!

[ljazztrm]

JoeCool, I had my first private teacher give me some of the Caruso exercises when I was 8 years old. Since then I have studied with several Caruso teachers, including a very famous one for over a year (about every week) in the area where I live. I love those exercises and believe they can do great things for one's playing provided they are taught by someone with a good command of the method. I derived great benefit from the year of lessons I had with the Caruso teacher I mentioned.

As far as the pencil exercises goes in relation to the Carusos, I just feel that the pencil exercise can develop the strength aspect much quicker than anything else. Of course, as you know, the Caruso method covers SO much more than that. I have only been able to 'test this out' a couple of times so far, but I'll bet that any strong Caruso cat who has been using the method for a number of years would have no problem doing the pencil exercise, and for longer than 4 minutes. If my chops ever feel funny or I just want to work on a specific aspect of playing for a certain type of gig, I am always back at the Caruso exercises. I can't think of a better combination to develop the physical/technical aspect of trumpet playing than the 'Pencil Exercise' combined with the Carusos.

[PC]

Hi all,

Count me in as a Pops method user! I "practice" my pencil (actually a heavier pen, now) at work once a day, approximately every 2 days. I also stop when the pen starts dropping below the horizontal, which happens on average now after 1 min and 20 sec, so that I never strain my lips.

I think I would have bothered more office colleagues practising Caruso in front of my PC, so there is no debate for me on what to practise at work!!

I find this routine, combined with some scarce lip buzzing (I work on Stamp material while driving) helps me maintain incredible endurance, taking into account that I rarely have more than 1/2 an hour a day of trp practice!

Of course, you would be buying my CD's by the dozen if I had the possibility to practise ON the trp 10 h a day, in addition (OK, and perhaps some more talent would not hurt!)!!

Cheers,
Pierre

[INTJ]

I am a comebacker player, a Pops student for a little over a year, and a pencil exerciser. When I started I could do 1/2 a pencil for 30 sec, a year later I can do a whole pencil for about 2.5 minutes. When I started with Pops I could sometimes hit F above High C with a trick mouthpiece and couldn't last very long when even playing third trumpet part. Now, I routinely play to G/A above High C during practice sessions, have performed High Ds, and can get through long, multiple sessions (like three services on Sunday) playing second trumpet with an ocassional first trumpet part thrown in--all on a a Curry 70M, which is a Bach 1.5C equivalent.

My issue right now is endurance when playing several first trumpet parts, like a typical Saturday, which is a 1.5 hour rehearsal followed by a 30 min music service. I run out of steam after the rehearsal. Why? Because I AM the over-dooer, the guy for whom Pops said, and has repeatedly said, to back off and rest more.

Pops has told me my current 2.5 minutes is enough on the pencil. Because I have developed some embochure strength--where I never had any before--I have a tendency to rely on that to play. This is workable (though not optimum) for notes in the staff, but using only embochure strength for above the staff wears me out very quickly. So Pops is having me refocus on air and tongue. Tongue is my problem, as I am having to learn how to raise my tongue arch--even when whistling--and NOT tighten my facial muscles as I do so.

I think they key for me will be a relaxed face and proper tongue movement backed up by air support. Yes, I could gain a bit more endurance by getting to 4 minutes on the pencil, but I need a LOT more endurance, and I just can't get there with embochure strength alone. So for me--at least at this point in my development--I do not need more time on the pencil and in fact, more embochure strength may be counter productive...........
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[EBjazz]

I wanted to reply to this since no one else did.
<I do wonder, however, if the pencil needs to be matched with a resonably cushiony embouchure...no smile.

Dr D>

Although I would never use the term "cushiony embouchure", your reference is correct. The pencil exercise will not help a "smiling embochure".
I've devolped a number of techniques for practice that involve the pencil exercise. You should follow the instructions implicitly.
Guidelines:
1. Always practice the pencil exercise at the very end of the day. At this point you have no more playing responsibilites. I usually do it before going to bed.
2. Always follow the pencil ex with a session of lip flapping, at least 30 seconds. Cupping your hands around your face will help to get the flap going.
3. Play by the rules. Hold the pencil for one minute ONLY for at least two weeks. It doesn't matter that you can hold the pencil for ten minutes. This is not a competition.
4. Increase your time to two minutes and then three minutes. If you're hurting, then limit your time. Although the facial area is muscle, it's muscle that is in balance and can not grow much.

Use these guidelines to help you with the pencil exercise and you might see some favorable results in your playing.
If you don't see results, then you've learned something and you can apply it to your teaching,
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[LeeC]

The thing I can't understand is the minority on this forum who are against the exercise. Some are almost adamant.

I mean, what harm could it do? You're using many of the same muscles in the same fashion as trumpet playing. You're not doing it instead of practicing. You can do the exercise in a car, at work etc. whereas you can't usually practice for real under those circumstances.

From what i understand the three major lip motions controlling register are 1, Forward as in pucker, 2, Curled or rolled in and 3, Compression. The pencil exercise creates pure compression but can also be applied with the lips curled or pooched for practice.

There has to be a correlation with endurance by doing the pencil exercise too.

[Jerry Freedman]

I do it. Well, I did it. I got so I could hold the pencil almost indefinitely so it wasn't really doing much good. It turned out that the "embouchure" I used for the PE was the exact same one I play with including the slight lower lip pout that Pops recommends ( I used his book). The results were immediate and startling. As Pops says it can be a life changer