The Julliard School

[kmm0805]

If you're considering Boston then check out Boston UNiv. Terry Everson is the full time professor and he is not only a great player and teacher, but also a great guy. And to be honest, I have never heard anybody make the trumpet sound the Terry does, he's great. Three students in the studio won ITG scholarships this year (2 freshman, 1 soph.) and other students of his have done well in competitions as well. BU is expensive for undergrad, but for the level of the studio and the education you would get, it would be worth it. And unless you want to concentrate on jazz, I wouldn't go to Berklee (even if you did want to concentrate on jazz I would probably still not reccommend Berklee). Good Luck!

[Umyoguy]

Hope I don't stick myself too far out on a limb here...

I'm graduating from Juilliard this year with my MM. I went to IU for my undergrad. So I should have found this thread about ten posts ago, because I could have probably cleared up a lot of confusion regarding the two schools.

Here we go - As a freshman, do not go to Juilliard. There. I said it. I'm sorry if I've ruffled the Gods. I've had many, MANY discussions about this with fellow colleagues about to graduate with their MM degrees, in different instruments. It's a consensus among all of us, at least the ones I've talked to most extensively - We've never seen so many headcases and ruined talent in our lives. Granted, it's in NY, and you've got great influences with the Phil, Met, Carnegie, etc, but most 17-18 year olds aren't capable of dealing with the IMMENSE, and I do mean IMMENSE pressure to sound as good as the older students. This isn't a slight on younger players, because the talent level of the underclassmen, in my mind, is STAAAAGGERING - Juilliard is just so damn unnurturing...Maybe that's fine with some people, but for me it would have driven me to another career had I gone to Juilliard as an undergrad.

Grad students and freshmen vie for the same positions. Classes at Juilliard are an absolute sham - Little to no real, applicable education. You're paying nearly $35,000 a year to live and practice in NY and in Juilliard's awful practice facilities. That's it. The teachers you will likely take your core classes from are established headhonchos who have their way, the Juilliard way, of doing things. If you step out of line, so help you god. The piece of paper is nice too, of course - The Juilliard name carries some clout - but if you're good enough to get in as a freshman, go somewhere else for some of the most formative years of your life. Leave Juilliard for gradschool.

I studied with John Rommel at IU for my undergrad and it was the greatest decision I ever made. Not only did he teach me to play the trumpet like I believe only he can, but I also received a VERY well rounded education. And I got the undergrad university experience at a Big Ten university. You only get to be 18-21 once - Don't waste it by going to Juilliard.

Juilliard does have some good teachers - I've learned quite a lot from Gould, but I don't believe my time with him would have been as beneficial had I been younger. The thought of emulating the perfection of Ray Mase is a depressing prospect for some (it would be for me). Phil Smith rarely teaches anymore - He didn't have any students this year.

I will discourage every highschool student I ever have from going to Juilliard as a freshman, because it's just too caustic of an environment for a young kid to develop into a mature, balanced, caring young adult. College isn't just about playing the trumpet, you know...

I hope this has helped, and that some of you will take heed, though I guess that if you're anything like I was, you won't I wanted Juilliard as bad as anyone else when I auditioned there. I just wished I had known a few things that noone ever told me about.

Good luck, and no matter what, you can never make a mistake - It's your life's course.

Jon

[308WIN]

Easy now Jon,
How do you really feel? I got my BM in '93 and my MM in '95 there (and yes I had to re-audition to get back in). I wouldn't necessarily say "don't go there as a freshman, or your life will be ruined" , BUT I would really take into consideration who is applying. Is it expensive? Hell yes. BUT (which you fail to mention) over 80% of all the students there receive MAJOR scholarship. I did.

I talked with Gould many times in lessons, at length, about this. We both saw several freshmen literally crumble. However, I don't necessarily attribute that to the "pressure" but more to being immature and in the "urban jungle" (not just pizza and chinese food is available 24/7....if you know what I mean?). I mean come on, 18 years old, no parents and NYC. To make it as an undergrad, you really (pardon my french) have to have your **** together.

The classes, while at the time seemed like a farce, BUT they were good. You have to remember, it's a conservatory (and not in the sense that semmingly every college has a music "conservatory" now) created for the purpose of cranking out performers, which it does well. The classes won't be like classes you get at a college with an excellent music program. But a large part of the education is being "in the thick of it", freelancing, going to concerts, etc. and that's something that's unique to conservatories in big cities. Yes, the ear training is hard (Ms. Scott and Cox are freakin' Ear Training nazis) and different (from all I've heard, almost all other schools teach moveable "do" in their ear training programs) but it works. Same with the L&M. Am I going to be able to write a great masterpiece? Hell no. Did it help me to better understand what I'm playing? Yep. And that's precisely what it's for. At the time I thought the Humanities classes were a farce too, but you know what? Nine years later, I'll still think about some obscure (or so I thought it was at the time) **** Dr. Rojcewicz rambled off, and think to myself, "so THAT's what he meant. Hmmmmm....". So I guess it wasn't all a waste.

In short, I agree and I disagree with you. It's heavy stuff, really heavy. Would I send an 18 y/o there? In most cases hell no, but NOT all cases. There are some who can handle it. But also consider this. This is an incredibly difficult, competitive business. I think the "sink or swim" notion about Juilliard (particularly for undergrad) is much LESS harmful than schools with, let's say, "far less developed" music programs accepting loads of performance majors, giving them a false sense of security, taking their money, and spitting them out.

Rich

[stukvalve]

Both my wife and I will be attending Eastman this coming Fall. I liked the school from what I saw when I was there in March, but Rochester really frightened us. As a matter of fact, it was so creepy, we thought we were in The Shining. -Max-
_________________
"It's not about working hard, It's about being organized." -Wynton Marsalis

matzentrpt@hotmail.com

[Umyoguy]

While Rich and I seem to agree to disagree on some points, some minor clarifications from my side are in order...

For any freshmen considering Juilliard in the near future: Regarding financial aid, tuition this year was $23k, plus approx $9-10k for room and housing in the dorms, twice that if you live off campus. You also must consider incidental expenses of living in NYC. It would, in my mind, be fair to estimate a bill of $35k/year for living expenses. The highest lump sum scholarship I've heard of is one of $15k, and then maybe some additional grants of $2-3k on top of that. There may be deeper pockets that I don't know about. However, the Juilliard endowment took a major hit (I took a class on the business of music last semester and we talked about Juilliard's actual state of affairs) coming out of the dotcom bubble burst and much of the financial aid dried up. With, lets just say, $18k scholarship, that leaves $17k left to the student/parents/loans. Ouch.

But that's really not the point - It's expensive to go to school at any of the better conservatories. Look at Northwestern. My main gripe with Juilliard is the environment. The ability to get whatever you want whenever you want is definitely a temptation, but that too is common to most college situations, if you know where to look.

The problem I've seen with Juilliard students is that there is little wiggle room to do what EVERYONE does in college, f*** up. Everyone has to go through learning experiences and make mistakes, especially in undergrad. And it is my opinion, from what I've seen from the vantage point of being a grad student, that undergrads have a particularly hard time dealing with those growing moments, much less so than the people that I was with in Indiana.

There are pressures from all angles in NY, not just from colleagues - Teachers, friends from other conservatories, visiting conductors. It's a grueling place, and I just don't think it's a great place for 18yo's to go straight out of highschool. Of course, there are exceptional cases for which Juilliard is just fine, but I think it's impossible to know who those cases are while still in highschool. I think there are better places to send kids with awesome talent where they can receive similarly beneficial educations.

I think we'll have to disagree on the whole quality of class offerings thing, Rich - Classes at Juilliard taught me nothing, other than to hate Mrs. Cox with a passion...heheheh (We did once sneak a fart machine into class to lighten the mood a little - She didn't appreciate that one, but we sure had a laugh!!) I think IU has a much, much better handle on what it means to be prepared acedemically for a life in professional music, but then IU is a much more acedemically oriented school.

The last thing I'll say in response to Rich's post is that I do whole-heartily agree with the last paragraph he wrote. There are many, MANY schools out there that cushion people's egos with a false sense of security about the availability of work out there, and what it takes to get said work. Juilliard definitely doesn't hide that side of the business to you, and it's just something that freshmen should be aware of when making their decisions, because there are some people who just can't handle that reality so early. That's all.

If anyone wants to contact me privately about this, please do so. I only mean to help by offering my version of the reality I've endured.

Jon