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Rotary vs. Valves


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trumpetnerd7
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is right for all types of classical? I've heard that to sound truly "german" a rotary trumpet is absolutely a must, but is there really that much of a difference between rotary and valve trumpets?
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johntpt
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes there is quite a difference between "German" or rotary valve trumpets and piston valve trumpets. In addition to different valves the German trumpets tend to have a smaller bore and larger bell than American trumpets. Consequently the German trumpets play very differently than American trumpets. They tend to have a darker, broader sound and a slower, less direct response.

In the German speaking countries the orchestral trumpeters use the German trumpets for everything they play from Bach to Stravinsky, Shostakovich and beyond. Many American trained trumpeters (and conductors) prefer the German trumpets for the Germanic classical and romantic composers - Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, etc. They sure make pieces like Schumann 2, Brahms 2, and Academic Festival Ov. a lot more fun to play.

John Urness
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trumpetgeek234
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at Monke's in cologne a few weeks ago and got to try their trumpets. Since then I am wanting to have a German trumpet. I think I would use it for almost everything except Jazz. They play so much nicer and are just awesome! A must for a serious player!
PB
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a441
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many US orchestras are telling applicants that Rotary trumpet playing is not necessary to win the audition, but it is expected of you to learn it, if you win the job.

Another thing with US orchestras that use Rotary horns on Beethoven, Schumann...etc

Very often, they will use rotary horns that are more like conventional trumpets. Yamaha rotarys are one such horn. Yes, it is a rotary and thus darker than a bach 229, but it is a far cry from a Monke rotary or the like. It will still have a bit more projection. This is a necessity in the US, where the concert halls are 2 to 3 to 4 times the size of German, Austrian etc. (European) halls
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Murray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a bit strange that rotary trumpets have made their way into American orchestras, in the sense that Americans think that these instruments should be used for Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms...maybe Bruckner, but not Mahler...Mahler is too difficult...I suppose that they started doing this in Chicago, and then everybody thought that that is what you are "supposed" to do.

I just saw the Berlin Philharmonic on TV recently. I only saw the last 5 minutes, but Barenboim was conducting. He is from Argentina, so at the end of the concert, they played a tango. Well, turning the tables, you would figure that those players, on playing "jazz", would then pick up their "jazz" (piston) trumpets. Nope. They used their rotarys. Why? Because they ALWAYS do!

This is what I can't understand. Why is it that this strange custom of using rotarys for only very select works, has become customary in the States. Historically, there is absolutely no reason for this, since Beethoven and Schumann wrote for natural trumpets. Even Brahms did, when valves were available. True, they are dark when played softly, but when played loudly, are blazingly bright! Nothing wrong with bright, but to me it makes no sense to play a brighter horn on Brahms. Now it seems like it's obligatory to play rotarys on certain pieces for everybody, which is a shame, since they are inferior instruments when all is said and done...Perhaps some of you out there enjoy playing on rotarys. I dread it, and much prefer the eveness, compactness, and the blow in general to a rotary.
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cgooding
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to a masterclass with Phil Smith this weekend and he said that the NY Phillharmonic uses Rotary horns up through Bruckner. The trombone section will also ues German trombones for the same material. He said that the trombones used to use American horns while the trumpets used Rotary horns, but that the trumpets were being way out balanced, they just couldn't keep up.
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pbtrpt
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The use of rotary horns in specific rep (Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner, Mozart, etc.) is about the trumpets integrating with a particular tone quality, blend and balance that's appropriate for the music. The rotary horns create a different mesh of overtones and blend within the brass section. Also when playing f and louder most sections will have an assistant playing along....better to have two people playing f and a great sound than one person playing FF and forcing it and having the sound spread as the rotary horns tend to do. Mouthpiece choice is also crucial. You need the right balance of horn and mouthpiece to work properly in the accoustical environment you're in.
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pbtrpt
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, the Monke horns are terrific! The C's were redesigned a few years ago and are tremendous. The Bbs as well. The Monkes seem to have the best sound and evenness of response and balance throughout the registers (the ones with the gold brass bell). If you're going to pick up a rotary it needs to have a different color than the piston horns, otherwise why bother switching. For rotary mouthpieces there's a great one made by Joseph Klier: JK Exclusive. Comfortable rim and slight V cup but not too accute. Balances horns nicely in all dynamics. the 4C seems to work best for higher/principal type parts and the 4B (deeper cup) for lower/section parts. The #4= @ a Bach 1C rim.
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big brian
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey.

I play a JK 5c for all my playing, and find its great! When it goes in the rotary though, it does make a nice match.

Brian
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Mzony
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the contact info for JK?
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big brian
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mike.

http://www.jk-klier.de/de/

Thats JK's website. Their mpcs are fantastic, and he does lots of variations. The ones that work best are probably the C cup. I play a 5c and love it. I went from a stork 2c which I thought was perfect and I was blown away with this! He also does ridiculously big sizes, (I think the biggest is a 17.8 rim.... Give a go, they're not expensive, the craftmanship is unbelievable, and they play great.

Hope they interest you,

Best wishes,

Brian

Ps, they're quite a big roomier than Breslmair, if that makes any sense to you.
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trumpetgeek234
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is that I can play way louder with a rotary trumpet than with a piston valved one. Even though the bore of the rotary is smaller it seems like you can get WAY more air through it. You can fill it with a lot of air and even when playing very loud, the tone is still full and round.
I think there have to be made a lot of differences. When we talk about piston trumpets, we talk about different models from different makers, when talking about rotary trumpets we just talk about them in general. I guess there are quite as much differences between one rotary and another as with an amati and schilke horn.
PB
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_PhilPicc
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,
I went to the web site but I can't figure out how to order a JK piece. Is there a stateside site to order from?

Thanks,
Phil
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big brian
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey.

I dont know of anywhere in the states that stock JK. I would try emailing them at JK, they should be very helpful, as they're a dedicated bunch!

if you have any more qs, please dont hesitate to ask!

best wishes,

Brian
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pbtrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only place I know to get these is at a music store in Cologne:

Musikhaus Tonger Koln (across from the concert hall in Koln)
Phone: 49-221-92-54-75-0
Fax: 49-221-92-54-75-5

You can order by fax using a credit card, usually takes @ 2 weeks for delivery to the states. Last time I ordered the price was DM86 or @$45 per mouthpiece.
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pbtrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only place I know to get these is at a music store in Cologne:

Musikhaus Tonger Koln (across from the concert hall in Koln)
Phone: 49-221-92-54-75-0
Fax: 49-221-92-54-75-5

You can order by fax using a credit card, usually takes @ 2 weeks for delivery to the states. Last time I ordered the price was DM86 or @$45 per mouthpiece.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's kind of ironic that in the States, everyone is going crazy about the Rotary trumpets, while over here, the players try to avoid using them as much as possible. I've just purchased two used Monkes (a Bb and a C) because I've been invited to audition for the Solo Trumpet position with the Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin. I like the horns, except my left pinky gets REAL sore when playing them (it's the only finger you can use to apply mouthpiece pressure).

Bob Platt (Solo Trumpet for the Berlin Phil) is coaching me a bit for my preparations for the audition. His Monke Bb has a neat addition. The Thumb trigger that usually manipulates the 3rd valve slide is instead connected to the main tuning slide - so he can throw it out at anytime he is running sharp no matter what valve position he is playing. He feels his horn doesn't play very in-tune on it's own and always tends to go sharp, so for him this works very well.

My Monke C by the way, plays much more in-tune than my Bach C does.

The audition is May 7 and 8. Time to go hit the excerpts again.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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johntpt
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-

Tell us more about your experiences with rotary and piston trumpets in Germany. What trumpets do the players who play the Broadway shows play? Do you know any orchestras that do not use rotaries? Does your upcoming audition require rotary trumpets?

The only time I've seen a German orchestra not using rotaries was a video of Celibidache and the Munich Phil late 80s - I believe it was Dvorak 9. They seem to use rotaries for German music and pistons for other things.

John Urness
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trumpetgeek234
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the control trigger for the main tuning slide is called "pitch-finder".
My teacher has one of the Monke's with pitch-finder too. I played on his trumpet and I must say it's a nice thing, but you have to get used to it. You can also pull the tuning slide in with that. That way any sort of pitch problem can be cured.
PB
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trumpetgeek234
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, John how did you come to Germany and what are you currently doing here, besides practicing excerpts
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