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Gold plate problem



 
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BruceB
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Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone else had a problem with acid bleed on a gold plated horn? I have a real nice trumpet that I got last summer (Getzen Genesis) and it developed these reddish spots on it. I called the company and was told to try a silver plate cloth to see if it was just dirt of some sort. That kind of got the spots off but you could still see shadows where they were. I took it finally to a local repair shop and they said it looked like an acid bleed. Sadly I've had to send it back to the Getzen folks to fix. It was a new model so hopefully it was just a victim of new processes. At any rate it's going to be about five weeks to get back. Sigh. At least I still have the 3001 to play. Hmm it's gold too though so I best keep an eye on it.
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davo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are these spots? What is acid bleed as it was described to you? I've had (and still have) gold plated trumpets and none have ever developed such spots as you describe. My first thought is that the diagnosis may be suspect.

On first reading your note, I immediately thought of the area around the bell rim, where there can occasionally be some acid flux bleed for the soldering of the bell bead, but I realized you are probably referring to something else.

Can you expand on the problem a bit?

Dave
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BruceB
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Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The spots are all over the horn but mostly on the bell itself and on the slides. Interestingly none are on the edges like I would have expected.

Acid bleed as it was explained to me happens because they silver plate first and then dip the horn in acid to clean it prior to applying the gold plate. Sometimes they don't get the acid neutralized completely. It's a not common but does happen on occasion. I wonder if it happens due to trying to produce a large quantity too fast.

The sad thing is it's one outstanding horn to play. For all the added weight it packs it plays higher easier than anything I've ever played. So regardless of this little adventure I'm still sold on Getzen's.
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davo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough. I guess this is possible and that a mild acid used to clean the silver plated surface before gold plating is likely as well.

I hope this issue is resolved to your satisfaction. I can understand how you feel.
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veldkamp
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Joined: 29 Dec 2002
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Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did you buy the Genesis, for more solistic stuff (jazzy) or can you play on it in every situation. I played the Edwards Gen. X once and liked it very much. Do you think it's is also suited for some lead work or is it more a solo horn ?
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Dano
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Location: Southeastern Wi

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Severisen 3001 LE is due back this week! Getzen sends the Gold horns out to the plater in raw brass. The plater does both the Silver and Gold so there's no squable or finger pointing when it goes wrong. Good news guy's, it's covered!!!!!

I must admit, I do miss my soul mate!!!

Dan

[ This Message was edited by: Dano on 2004-07-20 12:57 ]
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BruceB
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Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the Genesis for both solo and lead work. The upper register opens up so easily and the tone can be either dark or very bright depending on how much air you put in it. I also like to use it on very demanding sets as it doesn't tire me out as fast. I think it's because it takes so little effort to generate a tone. I was down at the Monette factory a while back and had the opportunity to play some of their horns and this one is very similiar with one major exception. The tone is much clearer I thought. For a heavy horn it's amazing how crisp a sound I can generate.

The Getzen folks tell me that the horn will have to be replated again. I'm assuming just the gold and not the silver underneath.
I still have the 3001 but they don't play the same.
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BruceB
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dano, What was your 3001 LE in for if I may ask? I have one of those also and it's an amazing horn in it's own right. It plays different from the 3003 though. It blew me away how light a horn they are. I expected that the gold would add weight to it but apparantly not.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, the spots are not an acid bleed. I have never seen nor heard of an acid bleed on a plated horn. That is one of the major benefits of plating. It seals off any of the holes that can cause an acid bleed. This is is also the real reason that some companies only offer plated and not lacquered instruments. Acid bleeds, real acid bleeds, are an unfortunate and ever present part of the manufacturing process. It has got to be one of the most difficult things to get a handle on as well as one of the most costly.

As for this horn, I would guess that it is one of three things. 1) The plating itself is "dirty". Basically, when the horn is being plated between the silver and gold steps the horn is not cleaned properly. In turn, you get almost a stain under the plating which eventually shows up. 2) It is something that was spilled or somehow got on the plating itself after it was done. If this were the case it would partially clean off, but never come out completely because of the scratch finish. It is very hard to get that surface cleaned out. 3) When we first launched the 3001LE model we discovered a problem with the case. It turned out that the glue used to put the case together contained a high amount of sulfer. This caused the case to actually react with the gold on the trumpets and cause some small brown spots on the plating. It had no effects on the silver, just the gold. Very odd, but we made the case company change the glues and the problem was gone. However, it is possible that one or two of the improper cases slipped in there somewhere. Unfortunately for us, there is no way to know until it is too late.

Hope this helped answer you questions.

Brett Getzen
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BruceB
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Brett for the info. When I first noticed the spots I called and talked with Mary and she was the one that first mentioned the possiblity of it being an acid bleed. Then my local repaiman seemed to think the same thing. I had thought maybe getting it dipped might cure the problem. It's on it's way back to you and should get there tomorrow so I'll be anxious to hear what it is if it isn't a bleed problem. It was on about 1/6 of the horn surface mostly on the slides and smaller diameter tubing. Some was on the top of the bell and bell curve. All I can say is thank God for good warrenties and you have one of the best. With luck it's a minor thing and I can get it back soon. I do like that horn a lot.
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Dano
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first saw it on my horn it looked like little brown blotches, I called them freckles! Tom explained the case glue problem to me right away on one of my visits. Sorry I didn't include that in my previous post. I think quality issues of this sort should be addressed by the company and not some obscure nobody like me, LOL!!!! I had a hunch Brett would hop on this when he got the chance, and he did.

I can assure you, Tom and Brett are just as upset as the guy's who got the bum cases. These horns are built to last long enough for your great grand children to finally wear them out and then a case manufacturer decides to use a cheaper glue and blemishes all the fine craftmanship!

All I can say is that having been forced to play my 4 year old Strad for the last few weeks has been an eye opener!!
Purchasing the Severinsen Custom 3001 LE was the best thing I ever did! It will be well worth the wait !

Dan
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Substinance18
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Joined: 08 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may just be the acidity of your skin because i had the same problem a while back when i got my holton t602. shortly after a got a a bessona dn i had the same problem except the marks were black. I just know that my mom has a high acid content in her skin so it tends to burn through certain metals and I had the same problem bu tit eventually went away.
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BruceB
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Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dano. So this is from the case glue? Who would have thought. So what did they have to do to your horn to fix it? I assume they gave you a new case (stupid question huh). They should get mine today and hopefully contact me with what's wrong. Thanks for all the info. I had never heard of acid bleed either and now I'm a little concerned about the skills of my local repairman who concurred that it was that.
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