Intonation and German Horn

josephus07 · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject:

Hello,

I'm playing 1st on Brahms 4 on a Monke C, and I'm having some intonation issues.

Top space D#'s, E's, and F#'s are giving me a really hard time - I'm trying to place them where I hear them, but I can tell they're not fitting with the orchestra, though I can't always quickly tell if I'm sharp or flat, just out, and often not centered.

Since the piece is in e-minor, those E's are important! Open is flat. 1+2 is sharp, and 3 works with the 3rd slide out, but I'm not used to that or how that centers, so short notes are kind of a gamble.

How about some general tuning advice?

Mouthpiece type?

Also, what are some good ways to work on soft, mid-high entrances? Anything besides just doing them over and over and over?

Thanks.

[ This Message was edited by: josephus07 on 2004-08-24 17:38 ]

mcamilleri · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject:

The Monke C is a rotary I presume?

You should use a rotary trumpet mouthpiece, otherwise you will very likely create severe intonation problems. With a rotary mouthpeice, the intonation should improve over using a mouthpiece designed for piston trumpet. Yamaha make pieces designed for rotary trumpet that you should be able to get locally, and should give a better match. Likely they are designed for Bb rotary, not C, so you might do better still with a European mouthpiece, though obviously they are harder to source. Yamaha 14E4, 15E4, 16E4.

When you get a better match to the horn, your soft entrances will also be far more secure in all registers.

See thread on 'Is there bad monettes?' in the Mouthpiece forum for my far-too-lengthy posts as to why mouthpieces can contribute to or cause intonation problems. The problems are at their worst around G on top of the staff, near where you are reporting issues.

Michael

brass2002 · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:05 pm Post subject:

Klier makes great rotary mouthpieces too.
_________________
Pistons:
Stomvi Master Bb, Schilke X1A & B6
Bach/Larson C, German Destino C
Monette 933 C, STC1 C & 149XL
Thein Eb/D/C 4 Valves
Thein Bb/A
Thein G
Larson GFT Eb/D
Rotaries:
Schagerl Bb D1, Schagerl C W 2001
Windisch Bb
Monke D
Scherzer Bb/A

guenni-trumpet · Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:14 am Post subject:

Hi,
I had a Monke C in the past and I had to play Brahms 4 at that time. I know the intonation problems in that piece. I played the "E" with the 3 by pushing the trigger out ( 12 is too sharp). The "D" I plaey with 13 by using the trigger.
There could be 2 reasons for the troubles with a sharp tone:
- mouthpiece
- leadpipe
sometimes both together.
Try to find a mouthpiece with a wider bore (3,6 mm as a minimum) and possibly a deeper cup. If that doesn't work enough try another leadpipe. Sometimes a more open leadpipe gives you the result you want.
Really good mouthpieces are made by
- J. Klier
- B. Tilz
_________________
greetings from Germany
guenni-trumpet
-----------------------------------------
Ricco Kuehn B, C
*Canadian Brass C
*Yamaha Custom D/E flat
*Schilke P5-4
*B&S Challenger II
*Mouthpieces: Bach 1C, Bob Reeves 43 MPC

josephus07 · Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject:

Does anybody know what size Klier or Tilz mouthpiece is somewhere around a Bach 1.5 to Bach 3?

Where can I try some of these? (Do Dillon and Rayburn carry them and send them on trial?)\

Thanks!

guenni-trumpet · Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject:

Hi,
Klier offers different models:
- Kölner model (concert line): very soft, thick rim, large bore (3,8 mm), deep cups
- USA Models: comparable to Bach (but softer rims I think)
- Exclusive models: direct feeling, harder rim than the US-Models (my impression).

Comparable to Bach 1 1/2 C (concerning the cup depth and the cup diameter) are
- Kölner Model: Model 207-2 (cup diameter 17,0 mm)
- USA Models: 1 1/2 C (has a little bit smaller cup diameter than the Bach 1 1/2 C, but feels very similar)
- Exclusive: 4 C or 4 D (cup diameter 17,0 mm, cup depth deep or medium).
For the Exclusive exists a very new Classic line with a 3,8 mm bore.
You can find the mouthpiece tables here:
For more information: http://www.jk-klier.de
Hope this helps....
_________________
greetings from Germany
guenni-trumpet
-----------------------------------------
Ricco Kuehn B, C
*Canadian Brass C
*Yamaha Custom D/E flat
*Schilke P5-4
*B&S Challenger II
*Mouthpieces: Bach 1C, Bob Reeves 43 MPC

maccluer · Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:45 am Post subject:

Are you sure that the top space "e" is actually flat?

josephus07 · Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:12 am Post subject:

Mr. Maccluer,

It's likely mostly a timbre issue when played open versus 1+2, but I was rehearsing with the 2nd player and open was definately flat to where he was placing the E, which could have been right on.

Yesterday it was much better. I'm not sure if I might just be placing the 1+2 E better, hearing it better, getting even more used to the horn, or what, but I'd still appreciate comments!

Do any American players use German 'rotary' mouthpieces? If so, do you use your regular rim or the rim on the mouthpiece?

Thanks.

maccluer · Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:58 am Post subject:

I've been playing my fundamentals all summer on my Ganter, and I prefer my normal mouthpiece. I think it depends on where you're from. My impression is that the guys in Vienna use lightweight rotaries often with normal Bach mouthpieces. In Germany the sound is a little darker and a little heavier.

josephus07 · Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info.

This summer I was doing basics on rotary with a mouthpiece that has the same backbore as the one I normally play on, a cup a bit deeper and shaped a bit more like a bach B, a slightly smaller throat, and a slightly rounder rim. At loud volumes, this really makes the horn ring in a way that my normal mouthpiece doesn't. However, at softer volumes, it is more covered and not quite what I want.

When I put my normal rim on this deeper mouthpiece, it loses some of the ring.

For specifics, if anyone cares to 'analyze' what I might be noticing, I'm using:

A raw brass Monke C, 113MM
Monke 2 leadpipe

Regular piston mouthpiece: Parke-Merkelo 265 depth cup with 24 throat
Parke-Hagstrom 24 backbore with 25 throat
Laskey 75 rim

Sounds better at louder volumes: Parke-Hagstrom cup (I believe 290 depth) with 26 throat
Parke-Hagstrom 24 backbore with 26 throat (cup and backbore are 1-piece)
Parke-Hagstrom .630 (about a Bach 3) rim

Take care.

Bill Dishman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174

With my Rotary C there was an incredible improvement intonation wise when I switched to a Breslmair G!. Most of the notes I was having trouble with cleared up. Also the centering was much improved. In my experience the rotary designed mp's are a better choice than piston designed mp's. I know however that many players play piston mp's with great successs.
I would think it would be worth checking out to see if improvements would be evident for you personally.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida

Bill Dishman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174

With my Rotary C there was an incredible improvement intonation wise when I switched to a Breslmair G!. Most of the notes I was having trouble with cleared up. Also the centering was much improved. In my experience the rotary designed mp's are a better choice than piston designed mp's. I know however that many players play piston mp's with great successs.
I would think it would be worth checking out to see if improvements would be evident for you personally.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida

josephus07 · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject:

What is a Breslmair G like in terms of rim width and cup depth? Thanks.

josephus07 · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject: Intonation and German Horns

Aww come on, nothing else?

Doesn't anybody care about rotary? Or do you just care about mouthpieces? Or "the latest" rage?

These are real skills and real situations, and a real honest question. But the ridiculous post "what's the worst mouthpiece you've ever played?" gets pages of responses.

Ridiculous.

guenni-trumpet · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject:

Hi josephus07,
for information about Breslmair-Mouthpieces please try
www.breslmair.at

I played on a Breslmair several years ago but only for a very short time. I didn't get familiar with that piece. Breslmair is more popular in Austria. In Austria there exists another imagination about the sound of a trumpet than here in Germany. To get a more teutonic sound I suggest mouthpieces of Tilz or Klier with a wide bore. But it is not absolute necessary to play on a rotary designed mothpiece....
Anyway. Maybe another aspect could play a role. You mentioned that your Monke has the leadpipe Nr 2. When I played on Monke C I preferred the leadpipe Nr 3 because it is more open. The tone was more smooth and not as sharp and obtrusive than on the 2. But several Monke players here in Germany are not so happy about the original leadpipes. So they substitute them. Very good leadpipes for Monke trumpets are made by Gottfried Büchel in Bonn. The adress:
Gottfried Büchel
Steinerstr. 40
53225 Bonn
Tel +49 (0) 228 - 47 04 90
But maybe Blackburn or others are able to make also good working leadpipes....
So maybe you have the right mouthpiece but the wrong leadpipe...
_________________
greetings from Germany
guenni-trumpet
-----------------------------------------
Ricco Kuehn B, C
*Canadian Brass C
*Yamaha Custom D/E flat
*Schilke P5-4
*B&S Challenger II
*Mouthpieces: Bach 1C, Bob Reeves 43 MPC