Resonance and sound

dominicano224 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 May 2004 Posts: 673

I read somewhere that every trumpet has a point where it will sound the most resonant. And it said that to play the most resonant you need to play at its pitch center. How do you find this point? How do you start playing in this pitch center? How do you widen it? I also read that resonant sound is the type with all overtones and can fill up a room even when playing softly. This resonance is achieved when the pitch center of the trumpet, mouthpiece and player are all on the same page. Does anybody have a clear definition of all of this? monette says that to play resonance means to play dead on the pitch. Doesn't that apply to any mouthpiece? thanks
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tpetplyr · Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:39 pm Post subject:

One thing you can try is to bend pitches up and down, until youve completely lost perception of where you think it oughta be, and then play it in the most comfortable position that yields the most beautiful tone. This should be the center of the pitch. It my not be in tune absolutely, but it will be where the horn wants it. Then you adjust with alt fingerings and slides preferentially to maintain the sound and with your lips as need be.

Stuart
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Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

This might help.

http://www.trumpetplayeronline.com/resonant_intonation.html

kalijah · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject:

The above posted link is one of the most mis-applied and ignorant explainations in trumpetdom.

Resonant playing, as you describe it, has to do with the matching of the vibrations of the aperture to the resonant mode of the horn. "Mode" being the frequency of resonance, depending on the accoustics of the horn.

However it can be demonstrated that a poor player can play with a bad sound that is right on pitch. And a good player can play with a good sound off-pitch. So tonal development is not totally dependent on playing in the center of the pitch but it does help, ALOT, as we would all agree.

One thing that does NOT affect tone is resonance in the oral cavity as Mr. VanCleave attempts to explain. Manipulating the teeth spacing, and embouchure muscles is how one accomplishes the desired embouchure setting. this includes the embouchure muscles inside, outside, and around the apperture, both outside the mouthpiece rim, inside and under it.

If one's teeth spacing is changed or lips are tensioned with muscular action from inside the mouth (results in raising the tounge position); the oral cavity may change. But to say that the result in sound is due to the change in size of the oral cavity is simply false. Especially due to any resonance in the mouth.

In Mr VanCleaves article he talks about the shower effect. Which is basically a correct observation. However the pitches applied by the singer in the shower must agree with the resonant mode available. So to apply correctly to trumpet playing the source vibration, the embouchure, should match the resonance in the horn, period.

To infer that the inside of the mouth will "resonate" like a shower is just laughable.

Lets compare:

SHower stall: Hard surfaces, flat, symetrical, paralel planar walls (extremely sound reflective) and also large ( a few feet or so, allowing fundamentals in the mid to low audible range)

Oral cavity: Very soft pliable surfaces, irregular shaped, extermely poor sound reflection in the frequency range of most trumpet fundamentals AND overtones. Sound scattering at practically all audible frequencies. And , of course, small. The mouth cavity, even if it was, resonant would not resonate ANY wavelength in most of the usable range on the trumpet (including overtones) due to its small size.

But the comparison above is not the only reason that resonance is not present in the oral cavity. I can elaborate later if you are not convinced already.

The resonance in trumpet playing is provided 100 percent by the horn. Not the body, the oral cavity etc.

Do not fall for the "Oral Resonance" myth. Develop your tone with the embouchure and the quality with which it vibrates and applies air pressure to the standing vave in the horn. The resulting size of the mouth does not matter. Dont "hamstring" yourself by trying to manipulate the oral cavity thinking that it's size alone has a direct result on sound.

crzytptman · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:32 pm Post subject:

Derek Reban is your man - he has discussed his research on TH many times, and has written some very good articles on the subject.
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trptStudent · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Posts: 2572

Very enlightening post kalijah.

I had read that posted article previously and in light of your arguments I can see that there needs to be some slight revising.

Derek Reaban · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:44 am Post subject:

You may enjoy reading about the clinic that David Krauss gave at the ITG Conference in Denver. His ideas are extremely well conceived and apparently come directly from Jim Pandolphi. If you follow the link to resonant sound in that article, you can read about my take on this topic.

As far as the resonant oral cavity, this is something that I experience in my playing. It’s not something that I physically try to change, but it just happens when I play. If the space in my mouth is too large in the upper register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound (and I may even miss the note). If the space in my mouth is too small in the lower register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound. How much is right for each register? When I’m focused on hearing that ringing, buzzy quality in my tone, my oral cavity just takes on the proper size for each register. You have to experiment and let your sound be your guide.
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Peter Bond · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:49 am Post subject:

Derek Reaban · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:21 am Post subject:

Peter,

Thanks for your message. My personal experience is that most players that I am able to blend most easily with have a similar resonance in their sound to mine (some more and some less), and that our tuning slides are generally in about the same place. Well, you managed to shatter that myth in several sentences! It just amazes me how difficult it is to generalize about our impressions related to sound production.

My ideas about sound are more in the Chicago camp (my instructors have worked with Herseth, Jacobs, and Cichowicz) and I’m most comfortable with those ideas. I see a great number of similarities with the information that David Krauss presented in Denver to what I have learned over the years. His presentation allowed me to fine-tune several aspects of my own playing and somehow he had just the right words at the right time for me to make some very tangible improvements in my sound production.

Do you think that Jim Pandolfi (sorry about the misspelling in my first post) would consider writing a book on this topic of sound production? I would be very interested in reading his take on this!

Also, do you happen to know if Nedo Pandolfi is related to Jim? I ran across his name when I was doing the orchestra rosters project, and see that he played in the Marlboro Festival section in 1959 and 1960.

Thanks for your always-interesting comments!
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Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

kalijah · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:48 am Post subject:

camelbrass · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:15 am Post subject:

Peter,

Thanks for that insight, it has put something into perspective for me which would have taken years to work out for myself. Just goes to show what access to great players provides.

Regards,

Trevor

jcstites · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:

Peter Bond · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject:

Musicman · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject:

I believe the orchestra that Peter is referring to in South America is la Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE (National Radio Symphony of Uruguay). Ever since I have gotten here I have heard many stories reffering to an american trumpet player named Pandolfi that was playing in the orchestra in the 50´s/60´s.
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robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

I just want to pop in here and say that this thread is awesome. History, pedagogy, and input from all corners of the trumpet world. Right on!

Peter Bond · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject:

razeontherock · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:00 pm Post subject:

This thread has opened up a lot of good ideas! As always, Derek Reaban
not only makes good points, but allows for different experiences from others. One simple, quick, objective way to test for maximum resonance and pitch center is taught by Bill Adam. The tonal effects this is designed to produce match the subject of the link Derek posted so well, I'm surprised I've never read that he uses it!
Anyway, Adam has his students start each day by taking the tuning slide out completely and playing just that much. You might have difficulty w/ this if you've never heard it done properly, because the way it can sound is amost unbelievable! There are CDs available of his whole "routine," which would help w/ this, but you can give it a try w/o it, following these guidelines:
starting on the right pitch is essential. Most B flat trumpets w/ a standard (not reverse) tuning slide will "lock in" on a concert E flat at the bottom of the staff. Many reverse tuning slides will drop a half step, but I have one that doesn't. I have a cornet that drops a minor sixth.
Tonally, you're looking for a for a focused sound with harmonics. This can be hard to hear at first, depending on your ear training and your playing. This can be made easier by playing into a highly reflective corner
(the shower affect?) Some have described a "reedy sound," or first hearing the harmonics as a "still, small voice." Bill Adam can do this at a low volume level w/ harmonics so strong it hurts your ears! He and his advanced students can do this w/ a full spectrum of harmonics that they control like a choir director blending voices, which of course gives tonal variation when you play through the whole trumpet.
You're probably only going to make a limited amount of progress per day with this, so I wouldn't spend too long on this one pitch. The idea is to allow your playing to adjust to your horn, which directly answers the original post of this thread. Other pitches that "lock in" are:
1 octave lower, and 2;
1 octave higher, and a step above that. This corresponds to F and G at the top of the staff, and gaining control over this can help overcome slotting problems your horn might have, w/o sacrificing tone.
Up from there it goes D and G on the horn, then C. (double high) Next is E ... on ALL pitches the goal is to have all the harmonics produced, but an octave above the pitch you're actually playing be the strongest. This addresses the question of "centering" on an expanding range. If you intently focus on hearing this goal while merely being aware of what you're actually playing, many find the body (eventually) makes whatever changes are needed to produce that goal.
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Derek Reaban · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:12 am Post subject:

Kalijah,

You wrote:

Derek Reaban · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:14 am Post subject:

Peter,

I’m very excited to hear that Dolf is authoring a book. I don’t know if you would have any influence in the content, but I certainly hope that he will spend some time in the text to describe his unique perspective on sound production. I like exercises, but I find text (especially at this point in my life) gives me that fresh perspective on how to approach the exercises.

It sounds like Jim grew up with music all around him. It would also be very interesting if he would include a brief bio about his varied playing experiences and the things that led up to his position with the Met. I know a chapter like that would fascinate me.

Musicman,

Has la Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE released any albums / CDs? I wasn’t successful in any searches on the Internet in finding them. Could you share some of the stories that you have heard about Nedo Pandolfi? I would be interested in hearing them.
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Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

kalijah · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:00 am Post subject:

It is just interesting that when VanCleave talks about opening and closing the teeth (wah-wah) he concludes that the change of sound is due to the change in size of the oral cavity, he totally disregards what this does to the embouchure, which is actually what is making the change in sound.

Too much is made of the oral cavity theories of some players and teachers which could lead to inefficient technique by the unsuspecting student. It happend to me as a youngster and it practically destroyed my sound, and created habits that took years to break.

(This includes overly taught concepts such as "Jaw-Dropping", "Yawning Action", "Dropping the tounge" etc. which can all lead to poor playing in the grossest way, all while the player believes that it is helping him.)

But as I said earlier ther is more to playing with a good sound than simply centering the pitch. And anyone who can sucessfully play ANY note experiences SOME resonance.