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Peter Bond
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Location: Metropolitan Opera
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 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Derek Reaban wrote: | You may enjoy reading about the clinic that David Krauss gave at the ITG Conference in Denver. His ideas are extremely well conceived and apparently come directly from Jim Pandolphi. If you follow the link to resonant sound in that article, you can read about my take on this topic.
As far as the resonant oral cavity, this is something that I experience in my playing. It’s not something that I physically try to change, but it just happens when I play. If the space in my mouth is too large in the upper register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound (and I may even miss the note). If the space in my mouth is too small in the lower register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound. How much is right for each register? When I’m focused on hearing that ringing, buzzy quality in my tone, my oral cavity just takes on the proper size for each register. You have to experiment and let your sound be your guide. |
When David Krauss first joined the Met section, we had a joke about tuning visually using a credit card;
Pandolfi (3rd tpt) played with his slide so far out that he would check it by holding the card lengthwise against the exposed tubing. Krauss would hold the card vertically against his slide, and I (2nd) would use the card on edge because I play with my slide nearly closed.
We all could blend, but played quite differently, and with a different concept of pitch center. Krauss' concept is close to Pandolfi's (having studied with "Dolf" as a youngster), but I am less so (although I agree with elements of it). Jim Ross is even further away in concept (probably closest to the Jacobs' school), yet he sounds great and we all seem to be able to make our sounds work together.
The upshot is that there is more to this resonance business than meets the eye (ear?), because of players' different approaches to the instrument. I've only illustrated one section of "legit" (ha-ha) players in one orchestra. There will be even more approaches in the jazz and commercial world.
Read, study, experiment, and learn, but realize that there are no rigid rules that apply to everyone.
Peter Bond |
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Derek Reaban
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Location: Tempe, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
Thanks for your message. My personal experience is that most players that I am able to blend most easily with have a similar resonance in their sound to mine (some more and some less), and that our tuning slides are generally in about the same place. Well, you managed to shatter that myth in several sentences! It just amazes me how difficult it is to generalize about our impressions related to sound production.
My ideas about sound are more in the Chicago camp (my instructors have worked with Herseth, Jacobs, and Cichowicz) and I’m most comfortable with those ideas. I see a great number of similarities with the information that David Krauss presented in Denver to what I have learned over the years. His presentation allowed me to fine-tune several aspects of my own playing and somehow he had just the right words at the right time for me to make some very tangible improvements in my sound production.
Do you think that Jim Pandolfi (sorry about the misspelling in my first post) would consider writing a book on this topic of sound production? I would be very interested in reading his take on this!
Also, do you happen to know if Nedo Pandolfi is related to Jim? I ran across his name when I was doing the orchestra rosters project, and see that he played in the Marlboro Festival section in 1959 and 1960.
Thanks for your always-interesting comments!
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest
Last edited by Derek Reaban on Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as the resonant oral cavity, this is something that I experience in my playing. It’s not something that I physically try to change, but it just happens when I play. If the space in my mouth is too large in the upper register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound (and I may even miss the note). If the space in my mouth is too small in the lower register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound. |
When setting the embouchure for ascending you are applying muscular tension to the embouchure. This happens on the inside of the mouth as well as outside. This tensioning of the embouchure causes a "gathering" of the tissues in the mouth. The firmer embouchure will then vibrate at a higher pitch. The size of the oral cavity does not matter here. There is an added benefit that the smaller size cavity maintains air pressure well, air pressure provided from the abdomen. A beneficial coincidence. But , again, the physical size is irrelevant as long as the embouchure setting is correct and air pressure is maintained. Resonance in the mouth has nothing to do with the sound. |
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camelbrass
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
Thanks for that insight, it has put something into perspective for me which would have taken years to work out for myself. Just goes to show what access to great players provides.
Regards,
Trevor |
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jcstites
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: |
Resonance in the mouth has nothing to do with the sound. |
Is it possible that people misinterpret the feeling of expanding their oral cavity with tongue placement? Because if you lower and farther back the tongue it has a bigger "sensation" that when the tongue is higher and more forward.
Tongue placement has allot to do with how I play, and it definetly effects the sound.
Just a possibly I thought of when reading your posts. |
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Peter Bond
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Location: Metropolitan Opera
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Derek Reaban wrote: | Peter,
Thanks for your message. My personal experience is that most players that I am able to blend most easily with have a similar resonance in their sound to mine (some more and some less), and that our tuning slides are generally in about the same place. Well, you managed to shatter that myth in several sentences! It just amazes me how difficult it is to generalize about our impressions related to sound production.
My ideas about sound are more in the Chicago camp (my instructors have worked with Herseth, Jacobs, and Cichowicz) and I’m most comfortable with those ideas. I see a great number of similarities with the information that David Krauss presented in Denver to what I have learned over the years. His presentation allowed me to fine-tune several aspects of my own playing and somehow he had just the right words at the right time for me to make some very tangible improvements in my sound production.
Do you think that Jim Pandolfi (sorry about the misspelling in my first post) would consider writing a book on this topic of sound production? I would be very interested in reading his take on this!
Also, do you happen to know if Nedo Pandolfi is related to Jim? I ran across his name when I was doing the orchestra rosters project, and see that he played in the Marlboro Festival section in 1959 and 1960.
Thanks for your always-interesting comments! |
Regarding blending and resonance among different players, Cichowicz often said that there were several "correct" trumpet sounds. I identify or interpret these to be "singing" sounds. Dolf has a beautiful singing sound, but he plays out on the very razor's edge of the sound (courting disaster if all of the physical elements don't line up just right). Jim Ross (and Cichowicz, for that matter) also has a singing sound, but he plays deep into the sound; you'd never mistake one player for the other, but they are both "correctly" produced sounds IMO.
I believe 'Dolf is working on a book, although every player/reader will interpret it differently (which brings the King James bible briefly to mind, but that's a whole 'nother thread and newsgroup - I hope).
Neither Jacobs, Cichowicz or Schlossberg wrote method books (the "Schlossberg" book is just a pile of his exercises assembled by his son-in-law), but their philosophy of playing lives on in their students. Much of Jacob's teaching has been misinterpreted by well meaning teachers and players for years - even during his lifetime.
Jim Pandilfi is from a brass playing family; uncle Roland is a hornist with the St Louis Symph. and his father played both trumpet and horn. I don't know his father's first name, but I believe he was playing in a South American orchestra around that time (59-60), so it may be him. I'll ask Jim the next time I talk to him.
Peter Bond |
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Musicman
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Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the orchestra that Peter is referring to in South America is la Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE (National Radio Symphony of Uruguay). Ever since I have gotten here I have heard many stories reffering to an american trumpet player named Pandolfi that was playing in the orchestra in the 50´s/60´s.
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Benjamin Browne
Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE
Orquesta Filarmonica de Montevideo
Escuela Universitaria de Música: Universidad de la Republica-Uruguay |
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robert_white
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I just want to pop in here and say that this thread is awesome. History, pedagogy, and input from all corners of the trumpet world. Right on! |
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Musicman wrote: | | I believe the orchestra that Peter is referring to in South America is la Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE (National Radio Symphony of Uruguay). Ever since I have gotten here I have heard many stories reffering to an american trumpet player named Pandolfi that was playing in the orchestra in the 50´s/60´s. |
Yes, that's it. Uruguay. Jim was born there as well.
Peter Bond |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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This thread has opened up a lot of good ideas! As always, Derek Reaban
not only makes good points, but allows for different experiences from others. One simple, quick, objective way to test for maximum resonance and pitch center is taught by Bill Adam. The tonal effects this is designed to produce match the subject of the link Derek posted so well, I'm surprised I've never read that he uses it!
Anyway, Adam has his students start each day by taking the tuning slide out completely and playing just that much. You might have difficulty w/ this if you've never heard it done properly, because the way it can sound is amost unbelievable! There are CDs available of his whole "routine," which would help w/ this, but you can give it a try w/o it, following these guidelines:
starting on the right pitch is essential. Most B flat trumpets w/ a standard (not reverse) tuning slide will "lock in" on a concert E flat at the bottom of the staff. Many reverse tuning slides will drop a half step, but I have one that doesn't. I have a cornet that drops a minor sixth.
Tonally, you're looking for a for a focused sound with harmonics. This can be hard to hear at first, depending on your ear training and your playing. This can be made easier by playing into a highly reflective corner
(the shower affect?) Some have described a "reedy sound," or first hearing the harmonics as a "still, small voice." Bill Adam can do this at a low volume level w/ harmonics so strong it hurts your ears! He and his advanced students can do this w/ a full spectrum of harmonics that they control like a choir director blending voices, which of course gives tonal variation when you play through the whole trumpet.
You're probably only going to make a limited amount of progress per day with this, so I wouldn't spend too long on this one pitch. The idea is to allow your playing to adjust to your horn, which directly answers the original post of this thread. Other pitches that "lock in" are:
1 octave lower, and 2;
1 octave higher, and a step above that. This corresponds to F and G at the top of the staff, and gaining control over this can help overcome slotting problems your horn might have, w/o sacrificing tone.
Up from there it goes D and G on the horn, then C. (double high) Next is E ... on ALL pitches the goal is to have all the harmonics produced, but an octave above the pitch you're actually playing be the strongest. This addresses the question of "centering" on an expanding range. If you intently focus on hearing this goal while merely being aware of what you're actually playing, many find the body (eventually) makes whatever changes are needed to produce that goal.
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"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Kalijah,
You wrote:
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There is an added benefit that the smaller size cavity maintains air pressure well, air pressure provided from the abdomen. A beneficial coincidence. But, again, the physical size is irrelevant as long as the embouchure setting is correct and air pressure is maintained. Resonance in the mouth has nothing to do with the sound.
AND
Develop your tone with the embouchure and the quality with which it vibrates and applies air pressure to the standing wave in the horn.
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I agree with everything that you have written here! I especially like the phrase that you have chosen related to the “quality of the vibration”. The more stuff that vibrates, the stronger the signal will be and the more resonant the sound will be.
I think that the Mark Van Cleave article overall is very well conceived. You have to remember the audience that he is writing for. This would be directed to the player that has NEVER personally experienced a resonant sound. This player may have experienced the sound that jumps out of them when singing in the shower, and the metaphor that he uses to bring this concept into place for a brass instrument is very good.
Mark also says:
| Quote: |
Resonant Oral Cavity: While playing the first note in the exercise below (G), open and close your teeth slightly. A "WA - WA" sound or movement. You will hear that as the teeth are closing, the sound changes to a tighter, pinched sound. As you open the teeth, the sound becomes thin. You will also notice that somewhere in the middle, the sound jumps out of the horn. You have just matched the resonant properties of your oral cavity with those of the horn. This is the point of greatest resonance.
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You wrote:
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Manipulating the teeth spacing and embouchure muscles is how one accomplishes the desired embouchure setting. This includes the embouchure muscles inside, outside, and around the aperture, both outside the mouthpiece rim, inside and under it.
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I think we’re all basically on the same page here. Bringing the concept of resonance and a variety of perspectives on how to achieve it to anyone whom chooses to find it is the point of this topic. I think we have all done our job in clearly talking about this idea of resonant sound.
Thanks for your posts!
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
I’m very excited to hear that Dolf is authoring a book. I don’t know if you would have any influence in the content, but I certainly hope that he will spend some time in the text to describe his unique perspective on sound production. I like exercises, but I find text (especially at this point in my life) gives me that fresh perspective on how to approach the exercises.
It sounds like Jim grew up with music all around him. It would also be very interesting if he would include a brief bio about his varied playing experiences and the things that led up to his position with the Met. I know a chapter like that would fascinate me.
Musicman,
Has la Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE released any albums / CDs? I wasn’t successful in any searches on the Internet in finding them. Could you share some of the stories that you have heard about Nedo Pandolfi? I would be interested in hearing them.
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:00 am Post subject: |
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It is just interesting that when VanCleave talks about opening and closing the teeth (wah-wah) he concludes that the change of sound is due to the change in size of the oral cavity, he totally disregards what this does to the embouchure, which is actually what is making the change in sound.
Too much is made of the oral cavity theories of some players and teachers which could lead to inefficient technique by the unsuspecting student. It happend to me as a youngster and it practically destroyed my sound, and created habits that took years to break.
(This includes overly taught concepts such as "Jaw-Dropping", "Yawning Action", "Dropping the tounge" etc. which can all lead to poor playing in the grossest way, all while the player believes that it is helping him.)
But as I said earlier ther is more to playing with a good sound than simply centering the pitch. And anyone who can sucessfully play ANY note experiences SOME resonance. |
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dominicano224 wrote: | | I read somewhere that every trumpet has a point where it will sound the most resonant. And it said that to play the most resonant you need to play at its pitch center. How do you find this point? How do you start playing in this pitch center? |
The thing to remember about the pitch center of a note on the trumpet is that it may NOT be the correct tuned pitch of the other instruments with whom you are playing. It may need to be raised or lowered to be "in tune" with the music. Naturally the closer the pitch center of the trumpet note to the intonation of the music, the easier it will be to play in tune with a fat, resonant sound. But, this doesn't preclude raising or lowering the pitch with the lip while still maintaining a good resonant sound. How is it done? It is done with a controlled air stream and efficiently vibrating lips working together. That is acquired by good practice routines.
| dominicano224 wrote: | | I also read that resonant sound is the type with all overtones and can fill up a room even when playing softly. |
The more that a tone is resonant, the more presence it has. A soft presence will fill a room if other sounds aren't over balanced and don't drown it out.
| dominicano224 wrote: | | And it said that to play the most resonant you need to play at its pitch center. How do you find this point? How do you start playing in this pitch center? |
Yes. The pitch center of the trumpet note. I think the best way to get a taste of easily vibrating lips is to blow the leadpipe moderately (long tones) for 3 - 5 minutes. This would be to remove the tuning slide and and play what's left ... the leadpipe. Put your lips in the mpc, have them touching (but not pressing against each other) and just blow the air. At some point you will vibrate. Try to get that tone up to a low concert Eb or D. This will depend on the length of your leadpipe. After playing the leadpipe for 3 - 5 minutes put the tuning slide back in and play a second line G (G2) with basically the same set up you have been playing the leadpipe. You should get a nice relaxed, clear toned G2 with resonance!
| dominicano224 wrote: | | monette says that to play resonance means to play dead on the pitch. |
Good players can achieve resonance off pitch center but is easiest to attain dead on ... pitch center meaning the pitch center of the trumpet note.
I agree, that resonance has nothing to do with the oral cavity. |
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as the resonant oral cavity, this is something that I experience in my playing. It’s not something that I physically try to change, but it just happens when I play. If the space in my mouth is too large in the upper register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound (and I may even miss the note). If the space in my mouth is too small in the lower register, I’m not able to achieve as resonant a sound. |
When setting the embouchure for ascending you are applying muscular tension to the embouchure. This happens on the inside of the mouth as well as outside. This tensioning of the embouchure causes a "gathering" of the tissues in the mouth. The firmer embouchure will then vibrate at a higher pitch. The size of the oral cavity does not matter here. There is an added benefit that the smaller size cavity maintains air pressure well, air pressure provided from the abdomen. A beneficial coincidence. But , again, the physical size is irrelevant as long as the embouchure setting is correct and air pressure is maintained. Resonance in the mouth has nothing to do with the sound. |
FWIW, my experience is the same as Derek's as quoted above.
And I have to disagree with you Kalijah; resonance or shape of the mouth has a great deal to do with the resultant sound, at least in my line of work.
Peter Bond |
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Musicman
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Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
Is Jim´s father Nedo still alive? I talked to a former student of his here in Uruguay and he was inquiring on getting in touch with Nedo if he is still here with us.
Ben
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Benjamin Browne
Orquesta Sinfonica del SODRE
Orquesta Filarmonica de Montevideo
Escuela Universitaria de Música: Universidad de la Republica-Uruguay |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Peter wrote: | Quote: | | resonance or shape of the mouth has a great deal to do with the resultant sound, |
Actually, Peter, you believe that it does because changing the mouth can and does affect the embouchure. There is no resonace in the mouth and if there were it would not be an enhancement to playing but a detriment.
As a matter of fact, theoretically the mouth could be infinitely large and ANY note could be played as long as: 1. the correct embouchure is set and 2. Appropriate air pressure is maintained in the mouth. Neither does the cavity size affect tuning directly as long as 1 and 2 are true.
But in practice the physical mechanisms that determine mouth size can and do affect the embouchure. That is why you belive as you do Peter.
Also, what we do with the size of the mouth can affect the way we hear and feel ourself play. But this does not neccessarily mean that the external sound changes. (Again, external sound will change if the embouchure is affected.)
It is possible to vary the cavity size in one way while NOT affecting the embouchure. That is by raising and lowering the middle/back of the tounge ALONE, while holding the jaw and teeth set. ( Moving the teeth would affect the embouchure setting and moving the front of the tounge forward toward the teeth affects the lip muscles and the embouchure setting.)
It takes good coordination from the player to accomplish this and to hold the embouchure set.
You can demonstrate to yourself that if you play a note and then vary the level of the mid/back part of the tounge ONLY, all while holding the embouchure, the sound will not, and can not vary. I have demonstrated this to others and recorded myself and proved that it is the case.
Of course, in the demonstration, air pressure must be maintained. So completely stopping the air by raising the tounge to the roof of the mouth will stop the sound, but not because of very small cavity but becase air pressure is not mainained at the aperture.
In effect the oral cavity is of use in two ways:
a. to support what you are trying to accomplish with the embouchure.
and b. to (in a small way) manipulate and maintain air pressure (not flow) at the embouchure.
In my own experience I have been able to play HUGE tones with a very small cavity size, with practice, because I have been able to set a good embouchure and maintain pressure. EVEN WITH THE TEETH TOUCHING. But in normal playing one would not want to close the teeth because it would work against a.above.
I will have a little more to say about why resonance does not and can not occur in the mouth while playing.
Regards,
Darryl Jones |
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dbacon
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bond wrote: |
FWIW, my experience is the same as Derek's as quoted above.
And I have to disagree with you Kalijah; resonance or shape of the mouth has a great deal to do with the resultant sound, at least in my line of work.
Peter Bond |
I'd have to agree with Peter and Derek. All you have to do is listen carefully. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Okay then dbacon,
First, are you shure you really know what resonance is? (I am not sure you follow my discussion, where exactly is it in error?)
also,
If resonance DOES exist in the mouth as you claim;
what is it's energy source?
what is its vibrational source?
where are its nodes?
how would it affect the sound as you claim? how exactly would it benefit the sound?
did you try the demonstration I described? |
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TrumpetEnthusiast1
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kalijah...I think your forgetting about how the tonge arch and jaw position affect a stable airstream (which is ideal) Airspeed is key...along with everything else of course:lol: |
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