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Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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 Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | Billy,
Unfortunately, not every teacher is a Bill Adam, or Arnold Jacobs, or Bud Herseth; and, not every student is the kind that can make it into an Indiana to study with a Bill Adam. Just out of curiosity, how many students were accepted into Mr. Adam's studio that had real technical problems -- students that weren't already "good." Also, were there any masters'/doctoral students teaching lessons there at the time?
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When I first came to IU he had 25 students in his IU studio (a full load was 18, but he couldn't say "no" to anyone) & another 20 who were studying regularly with his teaching graduate assistants (Those students also got lessons every couple of weeks with Mr. Adam and participated in his master class). However, in those days he regularly taught 75-90 one hour lessons per week. Do the math. Approximately half his students were not in school and most of them moved to Bloomington to be around him, although many of them drove in regularly from several hours away.
When I was a student at IU the majority of the students studying with Mr. Adam came to him as total basket cases. Many were not good enough to be admitted into the IU School of Music and simply lived in town, took lessons, and practiced 6-10 hours a day. Many of his students never were in school and simply moved to B-town, got a job, and worked to become trumpet players. Others eventually got to a point where they were eventually able to play at a level acceptable for admission.
As I recall, Billy was one of those guys who was struggling with his playing and moved to Bloomington for a few years, but was never in school. Right, Bill?
I know that both Charly Davis and I were not good enough to get into the music school when we first tried. I tried 4 times before I got in.
| mafields627 wrote: | | I'm pretty sure that I do understand the sound model approach -- though perhaps not the specific teachings of Bill Adam. As best as I can gather, if you forget about the face and focus on what's coming out of the bell, then the rest will take care of itself? Maybe if you're not a playing basketcase, which I was. |
Well...yes and no. If you have the wrong sound model in your head then you won't progress. It is the teacher's role to provide the proper sound model. This model must change as the player develops. Mr. Adam (and his best disciples) understand how to present the appropriate sound for you to model at a given stage of your development. The sound you should go for today is probably not the sound you will want to pursue at another stage, after your playing improves. The quality of sound a student should model is dictated by a player's technical/mechanical needs as well as by the musical imperative.
| mafields627 wrote: | | ...I'm not saying that the sound model approach doesn't work -- just look at all of the Suzuki violin kids (of course, that method does handicap them later on, but that's neither here nor there). I'm not even saying that I didn't benefit from studying that approach for a year and half. What I am saying, is that I would have progressed better if I had been given guidance in the mechanical areas of my playing and that simply telling someone to listen to recordings is not the best way to improve their playing. |
It sounds to me like either the teacher you were working with did not model the proper sound for you, you didn't REALLY hear the exact sound he/she was playing for your in all of it's detail and nuance, or (most likely) a little of both. |
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mafields627
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3776
Location: AL
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Harbison,
Thank you for the post you just made. It provides some good insight into Mr. Adam's approach for an "outsider." I think I'm going to let this marinate a bit and maybe dig into the Adam forum some.
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--Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I moved to Bloomington just to study with Adam. Best thing I ever did. There was a student at IU who wasn't accepted into the music school that Adam took resonsibility for and was allowed one semester to get it together. After that one semester he was accepted and the rest is history. His name is Randy Brecker. Charly Davis had a very rough time with his high register! Bobby Burns was a very average player. If you are really interested in this stuff, get to Bloomington for some lessons. Adam never turned down a student as far as I know. Yes, he has sent some away, but only after realizing they didn't trust his method or they wouldn't practice. His own grandson being one. One trumpet player who was having severe chop and mental issues called him for lessons one spring. Adam asked him to wait a few weeks untill school was out. The player shot himself the next day. Since that time Adam brings those desperate cases in immediately, even if he has to cancell lessons with others. At the age of 87 with the constant pain of sciatica, he still teaches 4 hours per day, and he still has a bigger sound than I. It is a living example of the ability of the mind to overcome.
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Bill Bergren |
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Umyoguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 1726
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: |
Knowing what to sound like is very good, but knowing how to produce that sound is even more important.
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Matt, this is it. This is it right here. This statement proves that while you may think you know what we're (ie, the Adam group) saying, you don't. If you did, the singular word "how" would never have been uttered.
Too bad you ran into a bunch of Adam-oriented guys - Your mindset is completely the opposite  But that's alright! Because I used to be like that too. It's taken me about 3 years to come around. Three years for Rommel's lessons to FINALLY sink in. I'll try to explain what we're talking about, because I agree with you - It all sounds like hooey when you're coming from an analytically based mind. I used to be that way. If what I say makes no difference, that's perfectly fine. I hope you find the answers you're searching for through another route.
I remember during my time at IU studying with Rommel many lessons where I would come in and complain about how something felt, or talk about where my tongue was placed. I was convinced I was doing things incorrectly (and incidentally, I was right) and wanted to know where to place this, what to do with that, etc. I kept collapsing on simple things like Clarkes, just as you described.
Rommel always threw his hands in the air with mock-frustration (maybe it was real) and said the same thing, over and over and over. "You're thinking too much."
At the time I was very concerned with emulating Wynton's technique. I knew all the tempo markings that he had ever recorded, wanted to be as fast, etc. I wanted to know, just as you do, how to do it.
The thing is Matt, your brain is WAY too complicated (and so are the mechanics of playing the trumpet, for that matter) for you to control conciously, and that's what you're trying to do when you ask what it is you should be doing. You're attempting to program your subconcious through concious means. Natural playing, playing that's as easy as breathing in and out, is not developed by thinking about how things work. I remember my time at Juilliard running into a flute player who was absolutely phenominal. I'll tell this story till the day I die. She finished recording a ten minute concerto in one take while I watched. She didn't miss a freakin note. I was stunned, so I was curious - I asked her "What were you thinking about while you did that?" She said "What do you mean?"
That right there proved to me that people that perform on the highest level aren't thinking at all - They're expressing.
Now, the question you're most likely to ask me, having that analytical mind of yours, is "Yeah, that's good for her. But how do I get to that point if my technique isn't solid - isn't where I want it to be?"
There's that "how" again. You can't ask that question. You must only do it. You must surrender yourself to simply copying the process intuitively. That means shutting off the part of your brain that wants answers. It means turning off that little voice that says "Dude, you're wasting your time practicing this - This isn't how it's done."
The greatest artists that I've ever seen have only preoccupied themselves with one thing - Making something sound the way they want it to sound. Granted, it's a lot harder when one has technical deficiencies that get in the way. But the whole concept behind the Adam philosophy (so far as I can understand it by studying with Rommel) is that the quickest, most efficient, and most effective way of reaching a certain goal is by surrendering the learning process to the subconcious. That way, when you finally do learn it, you're in complete command of it - It's as natural as walking or talking.
It's a difficult thing to do and I struggled for years focusing on what my chops were doing when I should have been focusing on what was coming out of my bell. It all would have been a lot easier.
It's something that you can only experience for yourself. There's noone who can TELL you how to triple tongue as fast as Wynton. Truth be told, not many people can, or ever will be able to. But the point is, he didn't learn to do that by thinking about how to do it. He just tried to do it until it sounded right. And that's what we all need to do too.
So for someone like you - I would simply suggest taking one practice session and turning off that part of your brain that is trying to figure it out. Just start playing, and start trying to mold your sound, your technique, whatever, into what you want it to be, WITHOUT JUDGEMENT. Simply try it. At worst, you'll lose one day of practice. But you might surprise yourself along the way.
Good luck,
Jon |
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senea
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Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I am working on making my approach to the trumpet wordless. It's hard because I speak English but all of my horns speak music, and because they are not as smart as I am - although some might argue! - so I have to adjust to them.
It's like learning a new language: if you start translating things in your head, verbal communication is impossible. You cannot look at a table and say 'table is mesa', or a window and say 'window is ventana.'' You have to see it for what it is in Spanish. You have to be able to look at the table and window and think'mesa y ventana' respectively. The analogy works for learning a second instrument as well.
You are trying to communicate in a language that does not use words. So why would you thinkin a language that does? |
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wvtrumpet
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 3131
Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I did not read all of the threads, but the title caught my attention. I apoligize if what I am saying has been stated previously. If it has great minds think a like... Joking
Anyway, I find that the best approach is to play with warm air all the time. Keep everything forward, point your "tear drop" part of the lips downword like holding a toothpick, and use your ear. Just by using your ear you can fix a lot of problems. If it does not sound bad, chances are you are doing stuff correctly. Try note bending also, this seems to help you to find the optimum center of a pitch. But I cannot stress enough to listen and match your sound to others that have great tone. Modeling for us is a must. Music is an aural art form. Sorry I can't spell...LOL
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dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:51 am Post subject: |
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One thing is true. If it sounds bad, that's a clue!!  |
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2476
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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"There's that "how" again. You can't ask that question. You must only do it. You must surrender yourself to simply copying the process intuitively. That means shutting off the part of your brain that wants answers. It means turning off that little voice that says "Dude, you're wasting your time practicing this - This isn't how it's done."
There is no try there is only do---so, could Yoda teach trumpet? |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Senea,
Your posts indicate a deeper understanding as time goes by. I would bet that your playing is going the same way.
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Bill Bergren |
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senea
Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Bill - John Rommel says amazing things, and I think I have been paying attention. |
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