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laying sharp



 
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trumpetgirl612
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: laying sharp Reply with quote

arrrgh!
I am perpetually laying on the sharp side
and when i pull out my slide it is sometimes rediculous...
and ill be in tune, tune again, pull out and be EVEN MORE SHARP!!?!?!?!

any ideas on how I might remedy this? I have asked teachers and they have all told me not to worry abt it!
but i start as a music major in the fall and this cannot go on forever!
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mumbles
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you sing intervals in tune? octave's, fifths, fourths...up and down?
I've found this has helped me.
Along with trying to play a certain tone colour throughout (rather than just getting the right notes). Even if you're playing on the sharp side of a note, the colour should be consistent up and down the horn!

Those are just a couple of ideas that helped me out.
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_Don Herman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those rare times I'd suggest getting out a tuner and seeing where the pitches and intervals actually lie. Or, better yet, sing along with a piano, picking out simple tunes and pitches out of the blue. Sounds to me like some ear training is in order... If you "hear" the pitch high, that's the way you'll play it.

Speaking from sometimes painful and decidedly on-going experience...

HTH - Don
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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come across this in a few players. I've seen one with the tuning slide out 2" and STILL playing sharp. Unbelievable.

Sometimes, the underlying cause is a mismatch between the mouthpiece, player, and trumpet. Often a particular mouthpiece/horn/player combination will not give a strong pitch center, and changing the mouthpieces can help. So, what horn and mouthpiece are you playing?

Most often, it is caused by the player having an incorrect sense of the pitch of a note, and an incorrect sense of the pitch center of the trumpet.

To get around it, put you tuning slide to about 1/4" to 1/2" out and leave it there. Don't try to play in tune to a tuner or anything else. Then start playing open notes in the mid range, like middle G and C, and vary the pitch both up and down. The pitch center is where the note sounds most strongly and fully - the sound will jump out when you hit it. Eventually you learn what this 'feels' like, and do it automatically. Very likely, you will find the pitch center to be lower than you normally play.

Once you have learned to play in the pitch center, then you adjust your tuning slide to play in tune, while still playing in the pitch center. Most often, the tuning slide will be 1/4-1/2" out, though up to 1" is OK for some mouthpiece and horn combinations.

Various embouchure issues can also cause this type of problem. If a week or so spent finding the pitch center doesn't help, then look to embouchure, tongue, and air use.

The good news is that once you correct this your tone, response and articulation should improve a lot.

Michael
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camelbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good advice...

Something worth trying and really easy to do is to add another syllable to your routine... put a 'Hooo' in there after the 'Haaw' and try and visualise the sound for as high as you can before using the 'Hee'. I found that just by going to the 'Hee' too early in my range I was playing sharp and not getting the pitch centres.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Trevor
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VM Trumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see this so much in my band and it is quite frustrating to watch. They are sharp, so they pull out. Tune again just to make sure and they are still sharp? This same thing happens on the flat side as well. What gives?

Well, let's eliminate one variable. The horn. Unless it is leaky, the trumpet is not doing anything different.

Second variable: the mouthpiece. Well, it has no moving parts so it can't really be doing anything. If you think this might be the problem, have someone else play on your set-up and if they are fine, it has solidified my points so far.

Third and last variable: you, the one behind the horn. If you make an adjustment by pulling out the tuning slide and it doesn't fix anything, chances are you aren't keeping anything constant. Don't change what you are doing (mouth or breathing-wise) everytime because results will never be constant. You will introduce two possible problems into the mix and it will make it that much harder to diagnose. Keep the embouchure the same.

Hope this helps,
VM Trumpet
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Josiah Chasteen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I had a simulare problem after I changed my embouchure over the summer (it just wasn't working out for me). What I did was.............

1. Relaxed
2. Did tone bending exersizes (with mp and piano then on the trumpet)

along with what the other guys said I think you get work out you problem.


Good Luck!
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tromba mann
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the lip bend idea. It helps find the center of the pitch. If your ears are used to hearing you play certain notes sharp, you sometimes make sub-conscious adjustments to your chops to hit those pitches even after making a change to your slide (actually overcomming the change). By playing lip bends, you remove the desire to play the sound in your head and just find the proper center of the note for the length of tubing you are blowing into. After a while, you'll be fine.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

99.9% of the time the student is not hearing the pitch. Can you hear that you are playing sharp or are you relying on a machine to tell you? Can you sing in tune? This is important as you will only be as good a player as the ears you develop.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the most common problems developing players have is playing high on the pitch. I don't mean playing sharp; I mean playing notes sharper than where the instrument really resonates and "wants" the note to sit. If your slide is out more than 3/4", I would wager that this is at least part of your problem. The reason I say this is that playing high on the pitch tends to result in a sound that is rather pinched, brittle and strident, relative to the tone the same player would have if he played in the resonant centre of the pitches. These are tonal characteristics we tend to perceive as sharpness. Even if the note is actually at the correct frequency, it is bent out of shape and uncentred (what I like to call "flarp") and is going to sound out of tune no matter what. The reverse is true of notes played below the resonant centre; they tend to sound deal, dull and tubby, and consequently are perceived as being flat. The problem, of course, is that the apparent solution to these problems actually makes them worse, because it means the player is now compensating even more to play where her ears tell her the pitch should be.

Of course, I've never heard you play so this could all be a a load of baloney...
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AverageJoe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcamilleri wrote:
...Most often, it is caused by the player having an incorrect sense of the pitch of a note, and an incorrect sense of the pitch center of the trumpet.

To get around it, put you tuning slide to about 1/4" to 1/2" out and leave it there. Don't try to play in tune to a tuner or anything else. Then start playing open notes in the mid range, like middle G and C, and vary the pitch both up and down. The pitch center is where the note sounds most strongly and fully - the sound will jump out when you hit it. Eventually you learn what this 'feels' like, and do it automatically. Very likely, you will find the pitch center to be lower than you normally play.

The good news is that once you correct this your tone, response and articulation should improve a lot....

Michael



This is the best advice on this thread, bar none.

Unless you are playing on one of those cheap Chinese or Indian made horn, and/or on a really defective/beat up mouthpiece, this suggestion will cure 99% of intonation problems. The vast majority of reputable mass-produced horns are designed to resonate at A-440 with the tuning slide out between 1/4" and 1". Set it at 1/2" and leave it there, then work on the lip bends -- first without a tuner to find maximum resonance, then with a tuner to fine-tune your slide position.

If your mouthpiece is beat-up, or if it does not seat well in the receiver, then you could have another issue. Check on that and let us know if there are issues there...

Paul Poovey
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Last edited by AverageJoe on Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tootsall
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tromba mann wrote:
I second the lip bend idea. It helps find the center of the pitch. If your ears are used to hearing you play certain notes sharp, you sometimes make sub-conscious adjustments to your chops to hit those pitches even after making a change to your slide (actually overcomming the change). By playing lip bends, you remove the desire to play the sound in your head and just find the proper center of the note for the length of tubing you are blowing into. After a while, you'll be fine.




I'll third the motion to lip bend... but add some elements. Firstly, go to website http://www.trumpetplayeronline.com/resonant_intonation.html and read the article "Efficiency through Resonant Intonation" by Mark Van Cleave. Probably the absolute best overall article I've ever read on trumpet playing. Once you've read it, stick a harmon mute (with or without stem) into the bell and bend "up and down" until you get the maximum buzz. This point is the horn's ideal spot for that note with that mute. The note will probably be in a slightly different location with the mute removed but the point is to develop a "feel" for where the efficiency of the note is maximum. Once you get that "AHA" feeling, remove the mute and try it without. After you have found the note "centres", use your tuner and find out which notes are sharp and/or flat and by how much. That will help teach you how to make those instant, "on the fly" adjustments. If you still find that the note is sharp (but the tuning slide is more than about 3/4" extended (ideal is around 3/8") or is shoved in all the way, the horn and your chop setup feels like it is maximum efficiency), then you need to consider the mouthpiece backbore.

Always be thinking "efficiency....maximum output for minimum effort".
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m usually very good at finding references, but it’s been such a long time since I’ve read the article that I want to cite that I can’t find it! Maybe it will ring some bells with others (Ole, any thoughts?).

There was a horn player (I believe in the San Francisco Bay Area) who wrote a great article on this topic and I’ll do my best to relate this concept. Clearly others have hit on the big issues here (hearing the pitch clearly in your mind and playing to the resonant center of the individual notes that you are playing). I agree with all of this, but for you to get to the point to understand it really well, accept it, and incorporate it into your playing, this perspective may be helpful.

The horn player (a professional in a major orchestra), said that for his entire playing career (many years with a big orchestra) he would strive for the darkest sound possible. The problem with this is that the sound that appears to be “dark” to the listener is actually a very dull sound that does not project well into the hall, and is very different than what the player wants the listener to hear. This dull quality is typically the result of playing above the resonant center of the individual notes on the horn and for the instrument to be in tune, the tuning slide must be pulled out.

Now this is the part that I really found interesting in this article…

There is a certain comfort zone when playing to the high end of the “slot” for each note. For horn players, especially in the upper register, the notes are so close to each other in the harmonic series that almost any pitch can be played with any finger combination. The high end of the notes (versus the resonant center where the note has vibrancy (lots of overtones) and will ring to the back of the hall), will aid in the security of attacks in this register of the horn.

When the player becomes accustomed to this “feel”, it becomes a very dominant aspect of the players sound production concept. In fact, once you play your tuning pitch and hear that you are high, this will be the pitch that locks in your head. You will pull your slide out (all the time remembering the sound in your head of the last note that you played), and you will play again with the “feel” taking over causing you to move even higher into the note slot (WAY above the resonant center of the note). You probably have pretty good pitch and will match the last note played, but now it’s the same sharp note that you played the first time, only requiring more effort and with a different sound quality.

Moving to the resonant center for each note will require some adjustments to your physical approach to sound production. You will hear the sound as being brighter when you play in the resonant center. You will also have to abandon that “feeling of security” that the horn player describes in his article (I really wish I could provide a link to it for you). This middle of the road approach to sound production may be somewhat scary at first because you will not have the reference points that you have grown accustomed to. It is well worth the effort though, and there is lots of guidance on this site to help you answer many of the questions that you will encounter.

Read about pitch center, work some breath attacks into your daily playing, “let” the sound out, model great players, etc.

If you can’t tell (while I’m writing about a horn player that described his own playing scenario), I battled with this same problem for years myself. It’s been five years since I cracked the code to finding a vibrant ringing sound. You can too!

Good luck!
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trumpetgirl612
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am not sure HOW exactly to do the lip bending.....
and i have to keep lipping down and down <doing it wrong?> and nothing is jumping at me
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trptStudent
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find I play on the sharp side as well, but it's because I hear the pitch on the sharp side, and it doesn't help that everyone else around me plays on the sharp side. At home when I practice, I work on hearing the pitch where it actually is.

I turn on my tuner or metronome and set it to Bb and just listen to it for a bit. Then I play the same note on my horn and check it against the note from the tuner. I alternate back and forth for a while until I have internalized the pitch.
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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lip the pitch up and down and listen very carefully. Don't try low C, try middle G or middle C. You should be able to lip these notes down by 2-3 semitones, and up by maybe a semitone. Somewhere in the middle is the pitch center.

Listen to the tonal change as you lip down as far as you can, and contrast it with that when you go up as far as you can. There is a difference in tone quality. Once you can hear the difference between far up and far down in tone and feel, then you can start to learn the difference between a bit up and a bit down, and then finally pitch center and not quite pitch center.

Other things to try are leadpipe buzzing (take out the main tuning slide) or playing with a mute or with earplugs. Any of these techniques changes the sound in you head so radically that your old concept of the sound of the pitch center doesn't apply, and leaves you free to follow the lips to the point of maximum response.

Since you can't find it at the moment, this suggests to me that you may not have a strong concept of a centered sound. Work at it - it takes time to develop. Having your trumpet teacher or a musician listen in can help if you really can't find it for yourself.

On some horns, it really slots in, on others it is more slippery.

Michael
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Msou30917
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey hey there pal, heres my advice (for what its worth) can u play in tune with a section, or with another person...can u tune to a piano?...if the answer to these questions is yes then i agree with ur teacher, dont worry about it too much, whether you're sharp or flat to a little machine doesnt matter, what matters is that you're in tune with the rest of the ensemble you're in. when u do get to college next year this problem will quickly fix itself. just from being exposed to better players, a new (hopefully better) teacher, and ear training classes, your intonation will improve. until then, just try to blend the best you can...and screw tuners, theyre over rated

hope i could help,
Mark
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally found the reference that I was looking for:

Quote:

I’m usually very good at finding references, but it’s been such a long time since I’ve read the article that I want to cite that I can’t find it! Maybe it will ring some bells with others (Ole, any thoughts?).

There was a horn player (I believe in the San Francisco Bay Area) who wrote a great article on this topic and I’ll do my best to relate this concept.


Unfortunately the link to this article no longer works, but if anyone is interested I found the author and the original source of the information from Feb. 2003:


http://www.hornsociety.org/HORN-CALL/articles/hornsound.html

by Ib Lansky-Otto


Ib Lansky-Otto is the Principal Horn of the Stockholm Philmaronic.
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