Flugels

[nieuwguyski]

For many years Yamaha sold 631 and 731 flugelhorn models (as well as a few others). The 631 was lacquered and had a red brass bell, the 731 was silver-plated and had a yellow brass bell. A few years ago Yamaha tidied up the model line and now they offer the 631G -- the same basic design, but now only offered with a gold brass bell, whether you get it in lacquer or silver plate.

The Yamaha website seems to indicate that the third-valve trigger is only available separately, as an "accessory." I guess it's a dealer-installed option.

You can get an instrument (or part of one) copper-plated. Someone on the TH has a new, copper-plated Couesnon flugel.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[rg3000]

I bought a new Jupiter846RL about 7 months ago. It has significant intonation problems with lower and upper range. By upper range, I mean anything above the staff. I've tried 2 different mouthpieces (including the Jupiter mouthpiece it came with)... same intonation problems.

I'd be glad, though, if intonation was the only problem I've had. The main problem is with the valves. After a few minutes of playing, at least one will stick coming up or not come up at all. I tried several valve oils hoping to find a cure, but no luck. A few weeks ago, I sent it back for repairs.

It seems like the majority of people who comment on the horn have positive things to say, but I know I'm not alone with my problems...
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www.iwasdoingallright.com - jazz trumpet blog and ear training tools

[mark schorah]

I own a jupriter flugel silver plating and with a trigger, its a great flugel for a good price, yes it isnt as well built as the yamaha flugels but it producers a beautful fat lovely sound, the intonation is good and so are the values. Its a great secondry instument along side my yamaha trumpet.


Mark

[Tootsall]

Patrick, I suspect that a lot of the "gold appearance" is more due to the lacquer that's applied. For what it's worth there is no reference to "gold brass" in any of the metallurgy handbooks I've referenced online (including those of brass suppliers).... I was able to find one reference to "rose brass". Interestingly enough, the copper/zinc proportions the "red brass" (which IS a commonly known brass alloy) is 85/15. The "rose brass" was listed it at 90/10. The only people using the term "gold brass" are the instrument makers!

On the other hand I have this reference which lists "red brass" as being EITHER 85/15 or 90/10!

Quote:
Red Brass Alloy 230: 85% copper, 15% zinc
Red Brass Alloy C83400: 90% copper, 10% zinc

Newer bells are usually made of a yellow brass alloy with a much higher zinc content such as (2,3,11):

Cartridge Brass, Alloy 260: 70% copper, 30% zinc
Yellow Brass, Alloy 270: 65% copper, 35% zinc.
:Unquote.
(In this article they are talking about sleigh bells, btw!)

Now, it is entirely possible that some manufacturer has gone to a brass supply house and said "I want sheets of 82/18" or "80/20" or some such and called it "gold brass".... but that's really kind of "splitting hairs".

I had a Yamaha 2330 cornet with their "gold brass" leadpipe so I realize that the appearance is different from "yellow brass" (which the rest of the horn was). I've yet to see "red brass" alongside "rose brass" and alongside "gold brass" in unlacquered condition to compare true color without the effects of the laquer (which undoubtedly varies from manufacturer to manufacturer!).

Oh.. and bronze? Replace the zinc content with tin! about 85/15 there.

[trickg]

You can talk all you want to about the intonation of the Jupiter 846 intonation being "good", but I'll have a hard time believing it. The intonation on both of the ones that I played took them out of any real serious consideration for me, regardless of the price.

Could it be that those that think that the Jupiter flugel and think that the intonation is good wouldn't know a horn that was in tune with itself if it bit them in the.....well, nevermind.

I went over to the Woodwind and the Brasswind site and read the reviews. Obviously the Jupiter is a very good seller due to the price, and in reference to the original post of this thread, most of the reviews say something along the lines of "nothing special but nice for the money". However, there was one review that caught my eye and one that I totally agree with:

" I tried this flug out just this past Saturday (3-13-04). Now I know that this instrument is supposed to be a good "value", but trust me you save some money but sacrifice sound and performance. This instrument is very poorly made, very sloppy and very low end. If you're serious about music, serious about playing for many years down the road DO NOT invest in this instrument. This is strictly for beginners. Invest in something you will use and get excellent results from. I ended up buying the Yamaha for &679.99, now that is a pro flugel."

If I'm going to pony up the better part of a grand for a horn, I am going to make sure that the one I get plays VERY well. I paid a little less than $1100 for my Kanstul. It is worth EVERY penny.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Liberty Lips]

[trickg]

There have been times where I have almost regretted not giving the 1525 a go and getting that, but for all I use my flugelhorn, and for as good as my CCF 925 is, it would have been wasted money. I play it through a microphone for goodness sake! However, that being said, I still wanted a flugel that didn't have what I considered to be severe intonation problems and of everything that I play tested prior to purchase, the Jupiter 846 was the worst of the bunch. I guess if all your budget will allow is the Jupiter, then fine, it's probably ok for the money, but my budget was such that I wanted what I felt was the biggest bang for the buck. To me, that was the the Kanstul CCF 925. It might not have been quite as good as the Yamaha 731S, but it was close enough that I decided to save a couple hundred bucks in the process.

To each his own, but someone once said something to me that I think applies here: "Don't be afraid to save and buy the best becaues you will never be disappointed with what you have."
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[gillie89]

Sean,
Have you thought about getting in touch with Jason Harrelson? While his modifications are pricey, he does take trade-ins. If you have a trumpet you don't really need or want, maybe you could trade it for a flugel modification that would help with the intonation. I am currently waiting to get my Getzen Capri Flugel back from him. He says the modification will help the intonation among other things. Drawbacks: it takes months to get the job done and you have to go on Jason's word as to how the horn will play when you get it back (unless you can get a hold of one of his traveling horns). Having said that, I love what he did to my Getzen Eterna Bb. The horn plays the way he said it would. I had no problem giving him my flugel to work on. Perhaps he could help you (or anyone for that matter) with their flugel woes. Just a thought. Gillie

[gruvertpt]

The "G" in 631G means Gold Brass. It has an amount of copper of that between the Rose Brass and Yellow Brass.

Hope that this helps!
_________________
Steve Gruver
-----------------------------
Bach 180s43--B-Flat
Bach 181s37--Cornet
Bach C180S239R--C
Yamaha 9610--D/Eb
Yamaha 9830 Custom--Piccolo
Blackburn leadpipes
Conn Wonder Cornet (c. 1902)
Conn 22B Trumpet "Symphonic" (c. 1927)

[trickg]

Steve, thanks for the clarification. I had thought that all 631s came with the rose brass bell, and that the "G" signified that it had a trigger, but after just a cursory internet search, I found a lot of information that shows just that - the "G" stands for gold brass. Sorry if I screwed anyone up on that.

Here is a cool article about flugels to buy:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Flugelhorn%20Guide.html

The article says that the Kanstul CCF 925 has a yellow brass bell, and while that might be the "stock" version, it is not the version that I own. Mine has a copper bell, and I believe it is because of the bell that I like mine so much.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Wes Clarke]

I have a Bach now and really like it. I compared it side-by-side to a couple of Yamaha flugels and didn't feel a need to change. I like it a lot better than the Reynolds flugel I played in college. The earlier post was correct about used Bachs often being good values. I think Doc Severinsen played one for a while but I noticed that he played a different horn on Letterman when he and Tommy Newsom did Here's That Rainy Day as part of the Carson tribute. Anyone know what kind of horn that was?

[gregc]

Yep, all the Yammy G's have the trigger installed from the factory. I've had one for 6 or so months now and the only thing I don't liie about it is the threads for the top valve cases. It more often than not it's a small challenge to get them caps screwed back on cleanly. It was like that from the 1st time I took em off to oil the valves. Otherwise, IMO, great horn.
gregc

[SA Doc]

I have a Conn V1 in laquer with the rose brass bell and can't say enough about the horn. The intonation is better than any trumpet I've ever owned, even with the stock mouthpiece. It was a demo horn in perfect condition that I got for $1000. Not cheap by some standards, but way under $2000. I don't think you'll find a better horn for the money. The used Yamahas are a good buy as well, but IMHO don't compare to the V1.
Scott

[Liberty Lips]