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Hornblowerr
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 137
Location: melbourne
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 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject: Best tpts for intonation... |
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I have a student who is looking for a new trumpet.
I was wondering if there are any horns that are particularly friendly for intonation, as he tends to slide around a bit. I think this is something that has developed as a result of playing the same crummy student trumpet for 6 years! (I only just inherrited this student)
What trumpets are the best for helping the player focus the pitch???
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Bb - Getzen Severinsen, 3001
- Bach Strad 37
C - Kanstul, ZKT 1510A
mpc - Vincent Bach 1 1/2C |
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plp
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 7023
Location: South Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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What is he presently playing, and what mouthpiece does he use?
All student instuments are built to have intentionally wide slots, to be more forgiving of the beginner. While it may be something physically wrong with the hardware to the point a new horn is in order, it sounds more like some ear training might be more beneficial.
Are you primarily a French horn player? I assume so from your tag. |
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Hornblowerr
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 137
Location: melbourne
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| plp wrote: | What is he presently playing, and what mouthpiece does he use?
All student instuments are built to have intentionally wide slots, to be more forgiving of the beginner. While it may be something physically wrong with the hardware to the point a new horn is in order, it sounds more like some ear training might be more beneficial.
Are you primarily a French horn player? I assume so from your tag. |
I'm not sure of the brand, but he's still using a 7C
I am trying to train his ear, but that takes time. I think that the instrument is so difficult to play (I had a go at it yesterday and really struggled) that he has developed some bad technical habits. I think a new instrument will help him to get over this.
I am actually a trumpet player... 
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Bb - Getzen Severinsen, 3001
- Bach Strad 37
C - Kanstul, ZKT 1510A
mpc - Vincent Bach 1 1/2C |
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Cliff Fitch
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 435
Location: Azle, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well, there is nothing wrong with him using a 7C. Its a good all-around mouthpiece. Just about any professional level trumpet will help him more than anything. In the $1000-$1200.00 range, I would recommend a Yamaha Xeno. If he is willing to spend up to $2000.00, a Lawler would be hard to beat. Lawlers are known for near perfect pitch, intonation, and easy slotting. Nothing wrong with a good ole Bach 37 either. Cliff
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1977 Bach Stradivarius Model 37 (Lacquered)
1972 L.A. Benge 3X+ MLP (Lacquered)
Member: International Trumpet Guild |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the TH!
Yes it could be the horn. Are there any air leaks? How does the mouthpiece fit, is there any wobble on the inside? Are the valves aligned sort of close? Are there are gaps in the tubing where it is supposed to fit together tightly. All these things could mess with the way a horn handles.
Most student horns have acceptable intonation. The Olds Ambassador is probably the most popular. |
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trptStudent
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Just out of curiosity, since the only teaching I did was last year, exactly how bad is that "crummy student trumpet"? Can you play it well?
In the past, I remember helping some students who slid around a lot intonation wise when playing, similar to the way you describe. What really helped them was to get them to listen to their sound more. The key for them was to get them to understand the amount of control they had over the pitch and getting to hear what they're playing more.
If the horn really is crappy, though I'm no expert on horns, I would think a student model Yamaha might do the trick.
Just my thoughts. HTH. |
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djm6701
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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Location: Richmond Hill (Toronto) Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Any good quality instrument will be good enough for this purpose. I think you need to focus on the ear training/matching pitches on the mouthpiece to fix any problems introduced by the old horn.
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Dave M.
Richmond Hill (Toronto) Ontario
Kanstul WB1600, 1952 L.A. Olds Recording, 1975 L.A. Benge 3x, 1960's Olds Flugel, Yamaha 631 Flugel
GR 65.6 Mouthpieces
a jazz.fm member |
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Hornblowerr
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 137
Location: melbourne
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Ford850 wrote: | Welcome to the TH!
Yes it could be the horn. Are there any air leaks? How does the mouthpiece fit, is there any wobble on the inside? Are the valves aligned sort of close? Are there are gaps in the tubing where it is supposed to fit together tightly. All these things could mess with the way a horn handles.
Most student horns have acceptable intonation. The Olds Ambassador is probably the most popular. |
the mouthpiece fit in the leadpipe is one of the things I was most concerned about. I know that when I stuck my mouthpiece into it it was too long and wobbled a bit. When I played it I had a lot of difficulty, myself.  I know that intonation problems can be improved by listening more, but in this case I think the instrument is certainly making it more difficult for him than it should be.
This student is preparing for grade 7 AMEB and his trumpet does not even have a first valve tuning slide. I think it's time for him to move on...
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Bb - Getzen Severinsen, 3001
- Bach Strad 37
C - Kanstul, ZKT 1510A
mpc - Vincent Bach 1 1/2C |
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camelbrass
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002
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Location: Dubai, UAE
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Just exactly what trumpet is he/she playing?
Regards,
Trevor |
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slickwillie2
Regular Member
Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 25
Location: San Tan Valley
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| An improper mouthpiece gap will completely screw up the intonation and make the horn play stuffy. Getting a mouthpiece that compliments the trumpet might be easier than replacing the trumpet. Get a Conn mouthpiece for a Conn horn (or whatever) , and it MIGHT cure the problem. Also, as an aside, I have had many pro level trumpets that didn't have first valve intonation devices. That was never a big deal to me. |
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plp
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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Location: South Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Let the new horn safari begin!!
There are 2 directions to go, IMOHO, either new or used. If new, there are a ton of small manufactures that turn out really quality equipment, as well as well as the Big 2, UMI and Yamaha. Geography comes into play now, as there might be someone close to you where he can demo trumpets.
The key here is let him play as many instruments as possible on his present mouthpiece. Keep score, take notes of each one, what was good, easy, or difficult. If you are an educator, you will be doing this a lot, so you can't devote a lot of your time to each one. Give them a list of names, point them in the right direction, and wish them well. If you can arrange trial periods with the local sellers ,sometimes their delivery people can incorporate you into their weekly route and you can hear this student play yourself. |
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bandman322
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Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 2259
Location: Lafayette, LA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Best tpts for intonation... |
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| Hornblowerr wrote: | | ...... What trumpets are the best for helping the player focus the pitch??? |
I find that my Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugelhorn plays better in tune than any horn I have ever played, and flugelhorns do not normally play in tune as well as a trumpet, especially in the upper and lower registers. I have not had the chance to own many Kanstul trumpets, but my experience with the horns from that maker are that they have a great centered pitch, while producing a wonderful sound.
My experience with Yamaha is that they play very well in tune, but the sound is just very vanilla for my taste. No Yamaha I have ever played has a great amount of ZINGGGGGGGGGG, but at the same time I have admitted that no Yamaha has been a great fit for me. The may be great horns for other folks, but they just have not worked well for me.
My main concert horns are both Bach Strads. My Bb is from the 1960's and is a very fine horn, but it was better prior to the last overhaul. My C is fantastic, but it is a Jason Harrelson modified horn, and anything that Jason tinkers with plays like gold!!! You want a great horn? Find one you like, then send it to Jason to modify! You will get back a one of a kind horn that will play in tune, with a great sound, and have lots of ZINGGGGGGG!!!
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C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37
"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie |
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fuzzyjon79
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Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yamaha is a great all around horn and the intonation is usually very good.
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J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!" |
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maynard-46
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Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 1845
Location: GEORGIA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: Best tpts for intonation... |
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I've played/owned Schilkes since 1970 and I can't remember playing even one that had bad intonation. In fact, I'm trying a B4 as we speak and I can't find ONE note that's out of tune...and I mean ONE!!! The Schilkes kind of play themselves and when you don't have to constantly worry about adjusting the pitch of certain notes it definitely makes the life of a trumpet player MUCH easier! 
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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Rich G
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Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Best tpts for intonation... |
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| bandman322 wrote: | | I find that my Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugelhorn plays better in tune than any horn I have ever played, and flugelhorns do not normally play in tune as well as a trumpet, especially in the upper and lower registers. I have not had the chance to own many Kanstul trumpets, but my experience with the horns from that maker are that they have a great centered pitch, while producing a wonderful sound.
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My experience is similar to yours. I have a Kanstul F. Besson Brevete flugel (French taper, .413 bore) that is so well in tune with itself it's effortless to play, no lipping needed to bring notes up (or down) to pitch. But I'm really not surprised. My Kanstul 1600WB trumpet is incredible in the way notes seem to just center themselves. And the absolute best horn I ever owned in terms of intonation and relative pitch from note to note was a MAX... made by Kanstul for Colin.
I have also owned some highly touted horns that were not really good in terms of intonation (a Schilke B6 with a very flat fourth line D). Yes, flat. My Schilke B7, in contrast, was excellent in terms of intonation and relative pitch. |
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jadickson83
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Joined: 19 Feb 2005
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Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Schilke Schilke Schilke......
the B1 or B5, which have the regular ML bore, are probably the best place to start. I just got a B1 and nothing will ever be the same for me. |
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Tootsall
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Schilke.....and Eclipse! Those horns coming out of Dunstable are incredibly accurate. If you ever get a chance to try one..... do so!
It's a close call between my B1 and Medium Red... but I have to give the nod (ever so slightly) to the Eclipse. |
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david johnson
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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before we get too drastic, put the kid in a room with a tuner for 2 days & tell him to make the needle stand center-still on all the notes he can play.
then see how he sounds.
dj |
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bandman322
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Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Lafayette, LA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| david johnson wrote: | before we get too drastic, put the kid in a room with a tuner for 2 days & tell him to make the needle stand center-still on all the notes he can play.
then see how he sounds.
dj |
I have a few students who can't stop the wheel on our strobe to save their life, but put them with another player and they will match pitch like a pro. I have taught my students to use ears and not eyes when it comes time to tune.
One more comment about tuning machines -- I hate them! I prefer to stress ears and listening because that enables a student to adhust on stage during a performance. They must learn to listen and play in tune by themselves, then to match pitch within the band.
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C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37
"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie |
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dcjacobson
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:31 am Post subject: Whoa! |
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Are some of us jumping off into the deep end here, recommending Harrelson-modified Bachs, $2,000 Lawlers, Schilkes, and Eclipses? Especially if this is a youngster? Or am I the crazy one?
Regards,
Don |
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